[Reader-list] FW: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter

miriam chandy miriamchandy at yahoo.com
Mon Sep 22 22:46:49 IST 2008 

Very well said Aarti,

And as to the Batla house shooting...there does seem to be alot of intriguing questions arising...and it is important that we ask them. Resorting to jingoistic sloganism only muffles the debate.

regards
Miriam



--- On Mon, 9/22/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter
> To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Monday, September 22, 2008, 9:58 AM
> I have been listening for some time to a sentiment expressed
> over and over
> again on this list, and elsewhere, which goes something
> like this. This is
> the best possible version of this argument, there are of
> course several
> variations, most far more abusive and offensive than this
> one, but
> regardless. It goes something like this.:
> 
> "I am a secular person. All religions have good and
> bad points. All Muslims
> are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.
> Therefore "good" Muslims
> should "isolate" the troublemakers in the
> community, and hand them over to
> the law so that the entire community does not get a bad
> name for some "bad
> elements."
> 
> Now this is an extraordinary claim. It presumes that
> "Muslims" are a
> homogenous, unified, internally coherent community so that
> the entire
> community can be held accountable when any member of the
> community strays.
> However this is a burden only the Muslim community must
> bear. Therefore when
> bombs went off in the RSS workshop in Nagpur no one asked
> the "Hindu"
> community as a whole to "isolate the bad
> elements". Because obviously there
> is no "Hindu" community. There are punjabi
> hindus, and gujarati hindus, and
> whatever else Hindus, and many who choose not to identify
> as Hindus at all.
> But of course all 'Muslims' are a community
> responsible for the actions of
> all other Muslims. This is ridiculous.
> 
> Muslims are NOT one community. There are people whose
> religion is Islam, and
> just as the Gujarati Hindus who distinguished themselves by
> murdering over
> 4,000 Muslims in 2002 are not related to me in any way, nor
> do all Muslims
> have anything to do with the individuals who set off bombs
> in Delhi (if in
> fact it is even proved that the so called Indian Mujahideen
> is indeed a
> terrorist outfit which is linked to Islam about which I
> have grave doubts.)
> 
> And there is the further ethical question of whether
> individuals can be held
> personally accountable for the actions of other
> individuals. There is of
> course a larger ethical sense in which we are all
> responsible for producing
> the social conditions within which certain acts can occur.
> But I notice that
> this larger sense of ethical responsibility becomes
> incredibly personalized
> when it comes to targetting Islam and Muslims. So unlike
> the sense of
> urgency we all feel when we see the increasing extremism in
> our societies,
> Muslims are called upon to be personally responsible for
> what is occuring in
> "Muslim society". Exactly what is "muslim
> society"? I confess in all my life
> I have never met a "Muslim" as if this were the
> only identity that defined
> them to the exclusion of all else.
> 
> I hope we are all aware and sensitive to how the dominant
> identity produces
> itself as the unmarked normative order against which all
> others are defined.
> 
> 
> best
> Aarti
> 
> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:18 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Yousuf bhai,
> >
> > I suggest you volunteer to join the Special Cell of
> the Delhi Police as an
> > encounter advisor. It would certainly help you answer
> all your questions.
> >
> > Its easy to scream here that 'why' this
> wasn't done,  'what' went wrong
> > there, and 'who' was responsible for this. Try
> and think from the
> > perspective of the Police as well.
> >
> > They just had some leads about this place; and had
> planned a secret raid.
> > God knows how you say that the entire world knew about
> it. Of course very
> > senior print and electronic crime reporters keep a
> track of things; and
> > some
> > of them are given information whenever possible by
> their sources in the
> > Police. I don't think there is anything so
> secretive or unusual in this.
> >
> > Just because this encounter took place in Batla House,
> Jamia Nagar a
> > densely
> > Muslim dominated area; we shouldn't and have no
> right to caste doubts on
> > our
> > brave soldiers of the Delhi Police and especially its
> "Special cell; which
> > successfully led this operation. Lets accept the fact
> that; major Terror
> > related incidents are unfortunately conducted,
> operated, planned, and
> > executed by Muslims. Here, don't think that
> I'm targetting a particular
> > community. Its plain truth.
> >
> > My head goes high, when I think of our brave Inspector
> M.C. Sharma. I had
> > heard of him before as well by chance. His technique
> of investigation and
> > purity of professionalism were extraordinary. I salute
> this symbol of PEACE
> > who could eliminate those who killed innocents in the
> recent bombings.
> >
> > Its so disheartening to see a few "Encounter
> Specialists" on this Sarai
> > Reader's List who are trying their best to target
> the Police and the state
> > for this encounter; with lame arguments. Its funny but
> at the same time
> > very
> > unfortunate. 'Think' for a change guys.
> >
> > I travel to Jamia almost daily for past year or so
> because of my good
> > friendship base in the University. Even these days
> after and before the
> > bombings I've gone their and interacted with
> people. The people in the
> > locality and neighbouring areas are as free, secure
> and as normal as any
> > other person living in any other locality of Delhi.
> But, its tragic that
> > places like Jamia Nagar, Zakir Nagar, Okhla, Shaheen
> Bagh, Seelampur etc.
> > are on and off used as base of a larger terror
> networks in the country. Its
> > time the local population in these areas formulates a
> plan along with
> > Police
> > and administration to nab these anti-national and
> anti-state elements and
> > also the locals should come out openly against Islamic
> Terrorism.
> >
> > It isn't easy to raid such a populated and crowded
> area as Jamia Nagar.
> > Police has to take care that there are no civilian
> casualties. So, even a
> > ordinary person can understand that what the Police
> did on this particular
> > day was the best possible methodology used. Till the
> time they would have
> > tried to block the area and rounded up, the terrorists
> might have escaped.
> > I'm happy that there was no major blood-shed and
> it ended up well. Though
> > I'm sad about the great loss we all in India
> faced.
> >
> > A meritorious officer of the Delhi Police knows how to
> tackle things during
> > an encounter better then a writer or a painter. The
> entire encounter wasn't
> > planned in anyway. It happened just because, the
> terrorists fired upon the
> > Police force; who were in plain clothes. Hope this
> makes things clear.
> > Also,
> > he was brave and was martyred fighting terrorists. Do
> you understand that ?
> > It wasn't easy as you may want to believe sitting
> on a comfortable chair
> > while thundering your fingers on the keyboard.
> >
> > Hope all your questions, rather allegations are
> answered.
> >
> > May the departed soul rest in Peace.
> >
> > Aum Shaanti Shaanti, Shaanti !
> >
> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >
> > On 9/21/08, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Aarti
> > > Here are a few points to add (from someone who
> lives there):
> > >
> > > Media started coming in only around 11:20 or so
> when appearantly
> > Inspector
> > > Sharma was already injured and taken away. No TV
> crew saw him being
> > taken,
> > > but someone took a still photo with a mobile
> which has appeared in
> > today's
> > > Hindustan Times, where you can see that he may
> have come down the four
> > > floors not on a stretcher.
> > >
> > > A reporter on "Times NOW" channel
> reported at around 11:30 am that day
> > (you
> > > can see the video on TOI site) that "he was
> in touch with the
> > investigating
> > > officer in the morning who told (the reporter)
> that they are going for a
> > > raid in Zakir Nagar, and that's how Times NOW
> was the first crew to
> > arrive
> > > here." Now one cannot understand how can you
> have a secret raid looking
> > for
> > > terrorists, and inform the whole world about it.
> > >
> > > Another important point: Inspector Sharma is an
> encounter specialist who
> > > according to TOI: "during his meritorious
> service, Sharma was
> > instrumental
> > > in the killing of 35 terrorists and the arrest of
> another 80 militants.
> > He
> > > had killed at least 40 inter-state gangsters and
> arrested another 129".
> > He
> > > has also won over a hundred gallantry medals.
> > >
> > > My mind boggles to think, how can such a
> meritorious officer walk into a
> > > flat (assuming there were terrorists in it) not
> wearing a bullet proof
> > vest,
> > > and get fatally shot so easily. This is just
> unbelievable, considering
> > his
> > > background.
> > >
> > > Many locals are saying that even if there were
> terrorists with guns
> > inside
> > > - why couldn't the police block the area
> (which they did ultimately),
> > take
> > > the local people into confidence, empty the rest
> of the building and
> > > neighborhood, and get the folks to surrender.
> After all it was a fourth
> > > floor and very easy to ambush without any
> bloodshed.
> > >
> > > I wonder if these questions will be answered by
> anyone.
> > >
> > > Yousuf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 9/21/08, Aarti Sethi
> <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Aarti Sethi
> <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FOURTH ESTATE
> CRITIQUE Fwd: Some
> > Questions
> > > About The Delhi Encounter
> > > > To: "sabitha t p"
> <sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk>
> > > > Cc: "sarai readerlist"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008, 3:39 PM
> > > > Thank you for posting this Sabitha.
> > > >
> > > > I have some more questions to add:
> > > >
> > > > :From all reports and accounts it appears
> that the media
> > > > was tipped off well
> > > > in advance of this operation. So much so
> that cables were
> > > > laid on the ground
> > > > to ensure clear transmission. How is it that
> the
> > > > "dreaded terrorists" holed
> > > > up in this flat did not get tipped off by
> this operation in
> > > > the vicinity and
> > > > flee then, and indeed waited to leave till
> after the
> > > > operation had begun? It
> > > > seems very strange that they would wait in
> this flat, while
> > > > the media
> > > > gathered, the police arrived, and then run
> from a house in
> > > > which there is
> > > > only one stair which had been taken over by
> the police.
> > > >
> > > > : A report in the Indian Express quotes JC
> Singh as saying
> > > > that, "Inspector
> > > > Sharma had the input but not the
> specifically of the right
> > > > address - there
> > > > was some confusion about the house in which
> the militants
> > > > were holed up."
> > > > Which means that the media was called and
> arrived in Jamia
> > > > Nagar while the
> > > > police wandered about looking for the right
> house? And
> > > > again the
> > > > "terrorists" waited while this was
> going on, 10
> > > > OB vans in the vicnity did
> > > > not tip them off?
> > > >
> > > > : The Indian Express also carries an article
> which quotes
> > > > an unnamed police
> > > > source describing the incident as "a
> suprise attack by
> > > > the militants." To
> > > > thwart such surprise attacks the police have
> been askedto
> > > > carry their
> > > > weapons with them at all times. How is an
> incident planned
> > > > by the police, to
> > > > which the media has been invited beforehand,
> a
> > > > "surprise attack"?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 1:47 PM, sabitha t p
> > > > <sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > --- On Sun, 21/9/08, satchidanandan k
> > > > <satchida at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > From: bobby.kunhu at gmail.com
> > > > > To:
> fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com;
> > > > > grassroots-in-action at googlegroups.com
> > > > > Subject: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd:
> Some Questions
> > > > About The Delhi
> > > > > Encounter
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > > From: Ajay <ajaydalit at gmail.com>
> > > > > Date: 2008/9/21
> > > > > Subject: Some Questions About The Delhi
> Encounter
> > > > >
> > > > > Some Questions About The Delhi
> Encounter
> > > > > By Shabnam Hashmi, Satya Sivaraman,
> Manisha Sethi,
> > > > Tanweer Fazal, Arshad
> > > > > Alam & Pallavi Deka
> > > > > 21 September, 2008
> > > > > Countercurrents.org
> > > > >
> > > > > A team comprising activists,
> academicians and
> > > > journalists visited the site
> > > > > of the police operation against alleged
> terrorists
> > > > staying in an apartment
> > > > > in Jamia Nagar in the afternoon of
> 20.09.2008
> > > > (Saturday). Two alleged
> > > > > terrorists Atif and Sajid, along with
> Mohan Chand
> > > > Sharma, an inspector of
> > > > > the Delhi Police's Special Cell
> died in the
> > > > operation while a third alleged
> > > > > terrorist was arrested.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the basis of our interactions with
> the local
> > > > residents, eye witnesses
> > > > > and the reports which have appeared in
> the media, we
> > > > would like to pose the
> > > > > following questions:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) It has been widely reported (and not
> refuted by the
> > > > Police) that in
> > > > > early August this year Atif, who is
> described by the
> > > > Delhi Police as the
> > > > > mastermind behind the recent terrorist
> bombings in
> > > > Jaipur, Ahmedabad and
> > > > > Delhi, underwent a police verification
> exercise along
> > > > with his four
> > > > > roommates in order to rent the
> apartment they were
> > > > staying in Jamia Nagar.
> > > > > All the five youth living in the
> apartment submitted
> > > > to the Delhi police
> > > > > their personal details, including
> permanent address,
> > > > driving license
> > > > > details, address of the house they
> previously stayed
> > > > in, all of which were
> > > > > found to be accurate.
> > > > > Is it conceivable that the alleged
> kingpin behind the
> > > > terrorist Indian
> > > > > Mujahideen outfit would have wanted to
> undergo a
> > > > police verification- for
> > > > > whatever purpose- just a week after the
> Ahmedabad
> > > > blasts and a month before
> > > > > the bombings in Delhi?
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) The four-storeyed house L-18 in
> Jamia Nagar, where
> > > > the alleged
> > > > > terrorists were staying, has only one
> access point,
> > > > through the stair case,
> > > > > which is covered by an iron grill. It
> is impossible to
> > > > leave the house
> > > > > except from the staircase. By all
> reports, the
> > > > staircase was taken over by
> > > > > the Special Cell and/ or other agencies
> during the
> > > > counter-terror operation.
> > > > > The house, indeed the entire block, was
> cordoned off
> > > > at the time of the
> > > > > operation.
> > > > > How then was it then possible, as
> claimed by the
> > > > police, for two alleged
> > > > > terrorists to escape the premises
> during the police
> > > > operation?
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) The media has quoted 'police
> sources' as
> > > > having informed them that the
> > > > > Special Cell was fully aware about the
> presence of
> > > > dreaded terrorists,
> > > > > involved in the bombings in Jaipur,
> Ahmedabad and
> > > > Delhi, staying in the
> > > > > apartment that was raided.
> > > > > Why was the late Inspector Mohan Chand
> Sharma, a
> > > > veteran of dozens of
> > > > > encounter operations, the only officer
> in the
> > > > operation not wearing a bullet
> > > > > proof vest? Was this due to
> over-confidence or is
> > > > there something else to
> > > > > his mysterious death during the
> operation? Will the
> > > > forensic report of the
> > > > > bullets that killed Inspector Sharma be
> made public?
> > > > >
> > > > > 4) There are reports that towards the
> end of the
> > > > counter-terror operation,
> > > > > some policemen climbed on the roof of
> L-18 and fired
> > > > several rounds in the
> > > > > air. Other policemen were seen breaking
> windows and
> > > > even throwing flower
> > > > > pots to the ground from flats adjacent
> or opposite to
> > > > L-18
> > > > > Why was the police firing in the air
> and why did it
> > > > indulge in destruction
> > > > > of property around L-18 after the
> encounter?
> > > > >
> > > > > 5) The police officials claim that an
> AK-47 and
> > > > pistols were recovered from
> > > > > L-18.
> > > > > What was the weapon that killed
> Inspector Sharma? Was
> > > > the AK-47 used at all
> > > > > and by whom? Going by some reports that
> have appeared
> > > > (see 'Times of India',
> > > > > 20.09.08), the AK-47s have been used by
> the police
> > > > only. Is it not strange
> > > > > that alleged terrorists did not use a
> more deadly and
> > > > sophisticated weapon
> > > > > like the AK-47, which they purportedly
> possessed,
> > > > preferring to use pistols?
> > > > >
> > > > > We feel that there are far too many
> loose ends in the
> > > > current story of the
> > > > > police encounter at L-18 in Jamia
> Nagar. We demand
> > > > that a fair, impartial
> > > > > and independent probe into the incident
> be initiated
> > > > at the earliest to
> > > > > answer the above questions as also any
> other ones that
> > > > arise from the
> > > > > contradictions of the case.
> > > > > Signed/- Shabnam Hashmi, Satya
> Sivaraman, Manisha
> > > > Sethi, Tanweer Fazal,
> > > > > Arshad Alam, Pallavi Deka
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >      Download prohibited? No problem.
> CHAT from any
> > > > browser, without
> > > > > download. Go to
> http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/
> > > > >
> _________________________________________
> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on
> media and the
> > > > city.
> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to
> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > > > To unsubscribe:
> > > >
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > > > List archive:
> > > >
> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > > _________________________________________
> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on
> media and the city.
> > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > To subscribe: send an email to
> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe
> in the subject
> > > > header.
> > > > To unsubscribe:
> > > >
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > > List archive:
> > > >
> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and
> the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to
> reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > subscribe in the subject header.
> > > To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > > List archive:
> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the
> city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to
> reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive:
> &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to
> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject
> header.
> To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list 
> List archive:
> &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

More information about the reader-list mailing list