[Reader-list] FW: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some Questions AboutThe Delhi Encounter
radhikarajen at vsnl.net
radhikarajen at vsnl.net
Tue Sep 23 14:23:05 IST 2008
Wah, great secular thoughts indeed.
For one in these secular thoughts, embedded are the false and mischievous misinformation about bomb making at Nagpur. ! This false information campaign started few days after the repeats of bomb blasts by apologists of "secular" thoughts.
As to other thoughts, do muslims not react the same way when an encounter takes place, doubting the very act of death of the brave men who scarifice their life ? Have I seen a single mother who has not claimed innocence of her devout son. ?Even as a kafeel and sabeel are in terror acts the mother on tv weeps and says they are devout, not capable of killing even a cockraoch just as they eat iftar with meaty kabas.!
----- Original Message -----
From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:58 am
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some Questions AboutThe Delhi Encounter
To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> I have been listening for some time to a sentiment expressed over
> and over
> again on this list, and elsewhere, which goes something like this.
> This is
> the best possible version of this argument, there are of course
> severalvariations, most far more abusive and offensive than this
> one, but
> regardless. It goes something like this.:
>
> "I am a secular person. All religions have good and bad points.
> All Muslims
> are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims. Therefore
> "good" Muslims
> should "isolate" the troublemakers in the community, and hand them
> over to
> the law so that the entire community does not get a bad name for
> some "bad
> elements."
>
> Now this is an extraordinary claim. It presumes that "Muslims" are a
> homogenous, unified, internally coherent community so that the entire
> community can be held accountable when any member of the community
> strays.However this is a burden only the Muslim community must
> bear. Therefore when
> bombs went off in the RSS workshop in Nagpur no one asked the "Hindu"
> community as a whole to "isolate the bad elements". Because
> obviously there
> is no "Hindu" community. There are punjabi hindus, and gujarati
> hindus, and
> whatever else Hindus, and many who choose not to identify as
> Hindus at all.
> But of course all 'Muslims' are a community responsible for the
> actions of
> all other Muslims. This is ridiculous.
>
> Muslims are NOT one community. There are people whose religion is
> Islam, and
> just as the Gujarati Hindus who distinguished themselves by
> murdering over
> 4,000 Muslims in 2002 are not related to me in any way, nor do all
> Muslimshave anything to do with the individuals who set off bombs
> in Delhi (if in
> fact it is even proved that the so called Indian Mujahideen is
> indeed a
> terrorist outfit which is linked to Islam about which I have grave
> doubts.)
> And there is the further ethical question of whether individuals
> can be held
> personally accountable for the actions of other individuals. There
> is of
> course a larger ethical sense in which we are all responsible for
> producingthe social conditions within which certain acts can
> occur. But I notice that
> this larger sense of ethical responsibility becomes incredibly
> personalizedwhen it comes to targetting Islam and Muslims. So
> unlike the sense of
> urgency we all feel when we see the increasing extremism in our
> societies,Muslims are called upon to be personally responsible for
> what is occuring in
> "Muslim society". Exactly what is "muslim society"? I confess in
> all my life
> I have never met a "Muslim" as if this were the only identity that
> definedthem to the exclusion of all else.
>
> I hope we are all aware and sensitive to how the dominant identity
> producesitself as the unmarked normative order against which all
> others are defined.
>
>
> best
> Aarti
>
> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:18 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>wrote:
> > Yousuf bhai,
> >
> > I suggest you volunteer to join the Special Cell of the Delhi
> Police as an
> > encounter advisor. It would certainly help you answer all your
> questions.>
> > Its easy to scream here that 'why' this wasn't done, 'what'
> went wrong
> > there, and 'who' was responsible for this. Try and think from the
> > perspective of the Police as well.
> >
> > They just had some leads about this place; and had planned a
> secret raid.
> > God knows how you say that the entire world knew about it. Of
> course very
> > senior print and electronic crime reporters keep a track of
> things; and
> > some
> > of them are given information whenever possible by their sources
> in the
> > Police. I don't think there is anything so secretive or unusual
> in this.
> >
> > Just because this encounter took place in Batla House, Jamia
> Nagar a
> > densely
> > Muslim dominated area; we shouldn't and have no right to caste
> doubts on
> > our
> > brave soldiers of the Delhi Police and especially its "Special
> cell; which
> > successfully led this operation. Lets accept the fact that;
> major Terror
> > related incidents are unfortunately conducted, operated,
> planned, and
> > executed by Muslims. Here, don't think that I'm targetting a
> particular> community. Its plain truth.
> >
> > My head goes high, when I think of our brave Inspector M.C.
> Sharma. I had
> > heard of him before as well by chance. His technique of
> investigation and
> > purity of professionalism were extraordinary. I salute this
> symbol of PEACE
> > who could eliminate those who killed innocents in the recent
> bombings.>
> > Its so disheartening to see a few "Encounter Specialists" on
> this Sarai
> > Reader's List who are trying their best to target the Police and
> the state
> > for this encounter; with lame arguments. Its funny but at the
> same time
> > very
> > unfortunate. 'Think' for a change guys.
> >
> > I travel to Jamia almost daily for past year or so because of my
> good> friendship base in the University. Even these days after and
> before the
> > bombings I've gone their and interacted with people. The people
> in the
> > locality and neighbouring areas are as free, secure and as
> normal as any
> > other person living in any other locality of Delhi. But, its
> tragic that
> > places like Jamia Nagar, Zakir Nagar, Okhla, Shaheen Bagh,
> Seelampur etc.
> > are on and off used as base of a larger terror networks in the
> country. Its
> > time the local population in these areas formulates a plan along
> with> Police
> > and administration to nab these anti-national and anti-state
> elements and
> > also the locals should come out openly against Islamic Terrorism.
> >
> > It isn't easy to raid such a populated and crowded area as Jamia
> Nagar.> Police has to take care that there are no civilian
> casualties. So, even a
> > ordinary person can understand that what the Police did on this
> particular> day was the best possible methodology used. Till the
> time they would have
> > tried to block the area and rounded up, the terrorists might
> have escaped.
> > I'm happy that there was no major blood-shed and it ended up
> well. Though
> > I'm sad about the great loss we all in India faced.
> >
> > A meritorious officer of the Delhi Police knows how to tackle
> things during
> > an encounter better then a writer or a painter. The entire
> encounter wasn't
> > planned in anyway. It happened just because, the terrorists
> fired upon the
> > Police force; who were in plain clothes. Hope this makes things
> clear.> Also,
> > he was brave and was martyred fighting terrorists. Do you
> understand that ?
> > It wasn't easy as you may want to believe sitting on a
> comfortable chair
> > while thundering your fingers on the keyboard.
> >
> > Hope all your questions, rather allegations are answered.
> >
> > May the departed soul rest in Peace.
> >
> > Aum Shaanti Shaanti, Shaanti !
> >
> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >
> > On 9/21/08, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Aarti
> > > Here are a few points to add (from someone who lives there):
> > >
> > > Media started coming in only around 11:20 or so when appearantly
> > Inspector
> > > Sharma was already injured and taken away. No TV crew saw him
> being> taken,
> > > but someone took a still photo with a mobile which has
> appeared in
> > today's
> > > Hindustan Times, where you can see that he may have come down
> the four
> > > floors not on a stretcher.
> > >
> > > A reporter on "Times NOW" channel reported at around 11:30 am
> that day
> > (you
> > > can see the video on TOI site) that "he was in touch with the
> > investigating
> > > officer in the morning who told (the reporter) that they are
> going for a
> > > raid in Zakir Nagar, and that's how Times NOW was the first
> crew to
> > arrive
> > > here." Now one cannot understand how can you have a secret
> raid looking
> > for
> > > terrorists, and inform the whole world about it.
> > >
> > > Another important point: Inspector Sharma is an encounter
> specialist who
> > > according to TOI: "during his meritorious service, Sharma was
> > instrumental
> > > in the killing of 35 terrorists and the arrest of another 80
> militants.> He
> > > had killed at least 40 inter-state gangsters and arrested
> another 129".
> > He
> > > has also won over a hundred gallantry medals.
> > >
> > > My mind boggles to think, how can such a meritorious officer
> walk into a
> > > flat (assuming there were terrorists in it) not wearing a
> bullet proof
> > vest,
> > > and get fatally shot so easily. This is just unbelievable,
> considering> his
> > > background.
> > >
> > > Many locals are saying that even if there were terrorists with
> guns> inside
> > > - why couldn't the police block the area (which they did
> ultimately),> take
> > > the local people into confidence, empty the rest of the
> building and
> > > neighborhood, and get the folks to surrender. After all it was
> a fourth
> > > floor and very easy to ambush without any bloodshed.
> > >
> > > I wonder if these questions will be answered by anyone.
> > >
> > > Yousuf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 9/21/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some
> > Questions
> > > About The Delhi Encounter
> > > > To: "sabitha t p" <sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk>
> > > > Cc: "sarai readerlist" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008, 3:39 PM
> > > > Thank you for posting this Sabitha.
> > > >
> > > > I have some more questions to add:
> > > >
> > > > :From all reports and accounts it appears that the media
> > > > was tipped off well
> > > > in advance of this operation. So much so that cables were
> > > > laid on the ground
> > > > to ensure clear transmission. How is it that the
> > > > "dreaded terrorists" holed
> > > > up in this flat did not get tipped off by this operation in
> > > > the vicinity and
> > > > flee then, and indeed waited to leave till after the
> > > > operation had begun? It
> > > > seems very strange that they would wait in this flat, while
> > > > the media
> > > > gathered, the police arrived, and then run from a house in
> > > > which there is
> > > > only one stair which had been taken over by the police.
> > > >
> > > > : A report in the Indian Express quotes JC Singh as saying
> > > > that, "Inspector
> > > > Sharma had the input but not the specifically of the right
> > > > address - there
> > > > was some confusion about the house in which the militants
> > > > were holed up."
> > > > Which means that the media was called and arrived in Jamia
> > > > Nagar while the
> > > > police wandered about looking for the right house? And
> > > > again the
> > > > "terrorists" waited while this was going on, 10
> > > > OB vans in the vicnity did
> > > > not tip them off?
> > > >
> > > > : The Indian Express also carries an article which quotes
> > > > an unnamed police
> > > > source describing the incident as "a suprise attack by
> > > > the militants." To
> > > > thwart such surprise attacks the police have been askedto
> > > > carry their
> > > > weapons with them at all times. How is an incident planned
> > > > by the police, to
> > > > which the media has been invited beforehand, a
> > > > "surprise attack"?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 1:47 PM, sabitha t p
> > > > <sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > --- On Sun, 21/9/08, satchidanandan k
> > > > <satchida at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > From: bobby.kunhu at gmail.com
> > > > > To: fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com;
> > > > > grassroots-in-action at googlegroups.com
> > > > > Subject: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some Questions
> > > > About The Delhi
> > > > > Encounter
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > > From: Ajay <ajaydalit at gmail.com>
> > > > > Date: 2008/9/21
> > > > > Subject: Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter
> > > > >
> > > > > Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter
> > > > > By Shabnam Hashmi, Satya Sivaraman, Manisha Sethi,
> > > > Tanweer Fazal, Arshad
> > > > > Alam & Pallavi Deka
> > > > > 21 September, 2008
> > > > > Countercurrents.org
> > > > >
> > > > > A team comprising activists, academicians and
> > > > journalists visited the site
> > > > > of the police operation against alleged terrorists
> > > > staying in an apartment
> > > > > in Jamia Nagar in the afternoon of 20.09.2008
> > > > (Saturday). Two alleged
> > > > > terrorists Atif and Sajid, along with Mohan Chand
> > > > Sharma, an inspector of
> > > > > the Delhi Police's Special Cell died in the
> > > > operation while a third alleged
> > > > > terrorist was arrested.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the basis of our interactions with the local
> > > > residents, eye witnesses
> > > > > and the reports which have appeared in the media, we
> > > > would like to pose the
> > > > > following questions:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) It has been widely reported (and not refuted by the
> > > > Police) that in
> > > > > early August this year Atif, who is described by the
> > > > Delhi Police as the
> > > > > mastermind behind the recent terrorist bombings in
> > > > Jaipur, Ahmedabad and
> > > > > Delhi, underwent a police verification exercise along
> > > > with his four
> > > > > roommates in order to rent the apartment they were
> > > > staying in Jamia Nagar.
> > > > > All the five youth living in the apartment submitted
> > > > to the Delhi police
> > > > > their personal details, including permanent address,
> > > > driving license
> > > > > details, address of the house they previously stayed
> > > > in, all of which were
> > > > > found to be accurate.
> > > > > Is it conceivable that the alleged kingpin behind the
> > > > terrorist Indian
> > > > > Mujahideen outfit would have wanted to undergo a
> > > > police verification- for
> > > > > whatever purpose- just a week after the Ahmedabad
> > > > blasts and a month before
> > > > > the bombings in Delhi?
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) The four-storeyed house L-18 in Jamia Nagar, where
> > > > the alleged
> > > > > terrorists were staying, has only one access point,
> > > > through the stair case,
> > > > > which is covered by an iron grill. It is impossible to
> > > > leave the house
> > > > > except from the staircase. By all reports, the
> > > > staircase was taken over by
> > > > > the Special Cell and/ or other agencies during the
> > > > counter-terror operation.
> > > > > The house, indeed the entire block, was cordoned off
> > > > at the time of the
> > > > > operation.
> > > > > How then was it then possible, as claimed by the
> > > > police, for two alleged
> > > > > terrorists to escape the premises during the police
> > > > operation?
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) The media has quoted 'police sources' as
> > > > having informed them that the
> > > > > Special Cell was fully aware about the presence of
> > > > dreaded terrorists,
> > > > > involved in the bombings in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and
> > > > Delhi, staying in the
> > > > > apartment that was raided.
> > > > > Why was the late Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma, a
> > > > veteran of dozens of
> > > > > encounter operations, the only officer in the
> > > > operation not wearing a bullet
> > > > > proof vest? Was this due to over-confidence or is
> > > > there something else to
> > > > > his mysterious death during the operation? Will the
> > > > forensic report of the
> > > > > bullets that killed Inspector Sharma be made public?
> > > > >
> > > > > 4) There are reports that towards the end of the
> > > > counter-terror operation,
> > > > > some policemen climbed on the roof of L-18 and fired
> > > > several rounds in the
> > > > > air. Other policemen were seen breaking windows and
> > > > even throwing flower
> > > > > pots to the ground from flats adjacent or opposite to
> > > > L-18
> > > > > Why was the police firing in the air and why did it
> > > > indulge in destruction
> > > > > of property around L-18 after the encounter?
> > > > >
> > > > > 5) The police officials claim that an AK-47 and
> > > > pistols were recovered from
> > > > > L-18.
> > > > > What was the weapon that killed Inspector Sharma? Was
> > > > the AK-47 used at all
> > > > > and by whom? Going by some reports that have appeared
> > > > (see 'Times of India',
> > > > > 20.09.08), the AK-47s have been used by the police
> > > > only. Is it not strange
> > > > > that alleged terrorists did not use a more deadly and
> > > > sophisticated weapon
> > > > > like the AK-47, which they purportedly possessed,
> > > > preferring to use pistols?
> > > > >
> > > > > We feel that there are far too many loose ends in the
> > > > current story of the
> > > > > police encounter at L-18 in Jamia Nagar. We demand
> > > > that a fair, impartial
> > > > > and independent probe into the incident be initiated
> > > > at the earliest to
> > > > > answer the above questions as also any other ones that
> > > > arise from the
> > > > > contradictions of the case.
> > > > > Signed/- Shabnam Hashmi, Satya Sivaraman, Manisha
> > > > Sethi, Tanweer Fazal,
> > > > > Arshad Alam, Pallavi Deka
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any
> > > > browser, without
> > > > > download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/
> > > > > _________________________________________
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