[Reader-list] desist from clicking 'send'
radhikarajen at vsnl.net
radhikarajen at vsnl.net
Wed Sep 24 18:34:22 IST 2008
Fearless mind is first requisit of freedom. : )
----- Original Message -----
From: Nazneen Anand Shamsi <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] desist from clicking 'send'
To: sarai readerlist <reader-list at sarai.net>, Iram Ghufran <iram at sarai.net>
> Dear Iram,
>
> Thank you for sending me an OFF LIST post, but as I have mentioned
> earlier, I will only engage in ON LIST conversations, so I
> respectfully beg your pardon for this mail.
>
> Lets get to the point. You mention that you had no 'desire' to
> 'educate' people, then why take the trouble to ask people to do or not
> to do a certain thing. Why ask people to 'desist'. Why instead of
> responding to the content of a post you choose to take a 'moral high
> ground' and correct people about the nature of their posts. Be it in
> terms of their volume, '45 mails', tenor- 'exercise restrained', or
> you perceived sense of justice, 'unfair'. If reader list a a public
> forum for debate and discussion which is not moderated by choice, then
> how does one validates you or anyone's angst, anger and stance to
> 'correct' people on how they speak.
>
> On a broad level, if public propriety is expected from all list
> members, then wouldn't it be nice if we are told the rules of
> engagement. When on one level Sarai, valorizes notions of 'fearless
> speech and fearless listening' and on the other, its members, in their
> 'individual capacity', ask people to 'desist' or 'keep restrained',
> then don't you think that this practice is sending out a wrong
> message. For me, to begin with, I am at a wits end to understand where
> exactly your opinions emanating from individual identity ends and
> where your views influenced by organizational identity begins.
>
> I have greatly benefited from discussions and debates on the
> reader-list, both in terms of an exposure to differing world views and
> assessing how people articulate their concerns. If Sarai in its
> generosity has provided us with an online platform for discussion and
> debate and if it has agreed to let it go un-moderated, then don't you
> think that by asking people to 'shut up' (as aarti did the other day
> but of course she is not a member of Sarai) and to 'exercise
> restrained', you are going against, what I would conjecture as, the
> foundational spirit of setting up reader list.
>
> What is wrong in dropping this pretense of 'non moderation' and
> placing in the public domain, a set of regulations, codes and
> behavioral norms for rules of engagement. Even the parliament of India
> as in every parliament, as in every formal institution of this world
> has it. The message that goes out by exercises like yours is this-
> that Sarai welcomes, discussion and debate and will tolerate the
> utterance of those whom it disagrees but only up to a level. Sarai
> will not dis-engage and debar them for Sarai needs to keep a public
> pretense of engagement in critical discourse and non moderation
> but it
> will certainly raise its eyebrows and quietly nudge all those who do
> not utter by choice or by intellectual sophistication, in a manner,
> which is perceived, to be decent, fair and restrained, by Sarai
> standards. Ofcourse, there will never be official condemnation of
> these acts. People only in their individual capacity with identities,
> that often end with ' @sarai.net ', will respond.
>
> I would humbly suggest you to ask all those concerned at Sarai, to
> stop this hypocrisy of non-moderation and come out with an imaginative
> set of rules, regulations and codes of engagement. When I read posts
> on reader list, I am not at all surprised or distressed or
> appalled to
> find extremely illuminating writings sitting comfortably with, what
> can thought of as completely disgusting literature. I read those mails
> in the spirit of 'non-moderation'. And then to find in my inbox,
> 'corrective' reminders from self appointed keepers of public
> correctness...well it is slightly disconcerting.
>
> In solidarity.
>
> Nazo
>
> PS: *********Kuch toh log kahenge
> logon ka kaam hai kehna********
>
> On 9/23/08, Iram Ghufran <iram at sarai.net> wrote:
> > Dear Nazo
> > I sent a general emailer in response to 45 reader list messages
> in my
> > Inbox yesterday. This issue has been raised by various members
> in the
> > past and some people were asked by the list admin to exercise
> restraint> before shooting of emails - in the nature of google chat.
> > I have no desire to 'educate' people - another day Nazo - when I
> have> the time and the inclination.
> >
> >> PPS: Many thanks for letting me know that Sarai reader list
> could be
> >> unsubscribed, I hope you could look into that too in case if the
> >> volume of -unfair- mails are too large to handle.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thanks for the advise. I will definitely keep that mind.
> > Best
> > Iram
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On 9/23/08, Iram Ghufran <iram at sarai.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Nazo
> >>>
> >>> Most list members do not have separate email accounts for
> various lists.
> >>> If the contents of an email are " :-) " , people feel that
> their co
> >>> list member has not been fair to them.
> >>>
> >>> I have a right to hold an opinion as a 'list member' who
> happens to work
> >>> at Sarai. I am grateful to Sarai and the people who ensure the
> smooth>>> functioning of the list so that people can discuss,
> converse (and accuse
> >>> and rebuke and insult). And before I go on, let me assure you
> that my
> >>> views are my own - at Sarai we are allowed to have independent
> opinions.>>>
> >>> There are protocols that govern public forums and public
> spaces. I will
> >>> not doubt your intelligence by trying to educate you on those.
> I am sure
> >>> as a responsible citizen of a country, you would be well aware
> of those.
> >>> Non moderation does not imply that the reader list becomes a
> forum for
> >>> insults or worse a forum for content less emails.
> >>> The reader list space is important to us. Its is as important
> to Shivam
> >>> Vij, as it is to Aarti Sethi, who may at times hold differing
> opinions.>>>
> >>> It is possible, very much possible to disagree and not be
> unpleasant. It
> >>> is also possible to be polite and very unpleasant.
> >>> Please continue your discussion and discard my email - just as
> you have
> >>> advised me to discard any that I do not find useful.
> >>>
> >>> All the best
> >>> Iram
> >>>
> >>> (Co list member, with an equal share in the reader list Commons)
> >>>
> >>> PS: All future conversations regarding this will happen Off
> list - at
> >>> least on my part.
> >>>
> >>> PPS: Its is very easy to unsubscribe from the reader list.
> Just drop an
> >>> email to reader-list-owner at sarai.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Nazneen Anand Shamsi wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Dear Iram,
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you for your post. I wonder why are you concerned about how
> >>>> people articulate their views. If this is a non-moderated
> forum for
> >>>> discussion, then please let it be so. Personal
> rebukes/accusations/>>>>
> >>>> conversations will always be a part of any public
> conversations. One
> >>>> cannot assume all those who post here will do so by implicitly
> >>>> subscribing to an agreed upon public etiquette. Don't you
> think that
> >>>> by writing periodic mails like the one below, you as a
> representative>>>> of sarai, engage in doublespeak. Could I ask,
> with all due respects,
> >>>> as to who are you, to assign an exchange as 'insulting', and
> how can
> >>>> you categorize, an exchange as 'petty'.
> >>>>
> >>>> If there is a categorical database, which the list administrator
> >>>> adheres to for archiving the list, then, don't you think that
> we, as
> >>>> participants of this list are entitled to it. If there are
> any such
> >>>> rules and regulations, then please share it with us. I am
> sure, all of
> >>>> us, would be benefit from it. If you have no desire to
> witness any
> >>>> witty comments, then, my dear, why don't you just delete all
> those>>>> mails, like we do, instead of threatening us with your
> >>>> assumed/imagined personal/organizational norms of decency.
> >>>>
> >>>> This issue with respect to language has come up on the list
> from time
> >>>> to time. I want to take Iram's letter as an opportunity to
> ask to all
> >>>> concerned, if language is such a big issue with list members,
> then>>>> please drop this pretense of non-moderated publicness of
> this list.
> >>>> Please make this list a private members only community,
> where, all
> >>>> those of us who are articulate, respectful of each other may
> engage in
> >>>> polite conversation.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would more than happy to be not included in this 'aap-
> jeenab' crowd.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best
> >>>>
> >>>> Nazo.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 6:04 PM, Iram Ghufran <iram at sarai.net
> >>>> <mailto:iram at sarai.net>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Dear all
> >>>>
> >>>> The Sarai reader-list is a non- moderated forum for
> discussion. I
> >>>> request you to please carry personal conversations/
> accusations/>>>> rebukes
> >>>> OFF LIST.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think the list administrator would want to
> archive for
> >>>> eternity
> >>>> some of the most petty insults that have been traded on
> this forum
> >>>> in
> >>>> the last few days. I have no desire to be a witness to
> any witty
> >>>> comments that people have to make in this game of one up-
> manship.>>>> I know
> >>>> that most people on this forum are very articulate and
> well read, so
> >>>> unless anyone has something substantial to say, please
> restrain>>>> yourself
> >>>> from clicking 'send'. But then who will decide
> 'substantial'? Well,
> >>>> I
> >>>> still have hope in everyones ability to gauge that!
> >>>>
> >>>> And can we not do what the press is doing - a media
> trial. Not of
> >>>> the
> >>>> alleged terrorists, and not of the Delhi police. Let us
> also bear in
> >>>> mind as responsible citizens of the Republic (and correct
> me if I am
> >>>> wrong) that the Judiciary in this country holds a person
> innocent,>>>> until
> >>>> proven guilty. So I request people, upholders of the
> Constitution to
> >>>> please bear that in mind.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please please spare the Inboxes of fourteen hundred people.
> >>>> Thank you.
> >>>> Iram
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _________________________________________
> >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>>> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
> >>>> <mailto:reader-list-request at sarai.net> with subscribe in the
> >>>> subject header.
> >>>> To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
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