[Reader-list] On Sarai postings

inder salim indersalim at gmail.com
Thu Sep 25 08:57:07 IST 2008 

THIS IS WHAT IRAM GUFRAN SAID



On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi
<nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Dear Radhakrishnan,
>
> I completely empathize with your 'anguish' but one has to bear in mind
> that what you construe as 'unwarranted personal attacks and slander'
> is nothing but one of the ways to carry out public conversations.
>
> Unfortunately for you and some of the other fourteen hundred members
> Sarai reader-list, is a 'NON-MODERATED' public platform.
>
> We as list members have only two options- either we read all the mails
> in the spirit of non-moderated public-ness i.e we remain silent or we
> respond either by exhorting, threatening those who disgust our
> sensibility or by writing to members of sarai community.
>
>  Members of Sarai community it seem, will, however, never pay heed to
> your gentle plea, to do something, about the state of affairs with
> respect to reader list.
>
> Sometimes I feel that the studied patience on behalf of Sarai
> community is based on an assumption that this torrent of invectives
> and profoundly abusive nature of language will average itself out in
> the long run. I may be wrong on this but nevertheless this is what I
> feel.
>
> I wonder at the resoluteness of Sarai to communicate to us through a
> silence which on the one hand is indeed poetic, but on the other may
> seem callous and cavalier when its members in their
> 'individual/private capacity' of course respond angrily over the
> nature of mails and in a gentle manner ask people to mind their
> language.  (Sarai members please don't be insinuated by this, as my
> intentions are not to attack or slander you personally, far more than
> that, I greatly respect you but it pains me to see this hypocrisy with
> respect to an official stance to keep mum most of the times and shout
> at some of the times(ooops! I forgot that's done in individual
> capacity!) )
>
> I take Radhakrishnan's mail as an opportunity to urge all list
> members, active/passive/lurkers/provocateurs  to write to Sarai admin,
> to come up with some form of formal rules of engagement that include
> punitive measures.
>
> Please Regulate!
>
> This I say in all earnestness.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Nazo
>
>
>
>
> On 24 Sep 2008 16:48:58 -0000, Radhakrishnan <krishnanrr at rediffmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Folks!
>> I want to express my anguish about the level of debate and unwarranted
>> personal attacks and slander. in fact I had raised similar issues through an
>> email to Shuddha. I am making these observations with with deep regret,
>> since I have high regard for Sarai as a platform for raising and debating
>> significant issues. But since some months there has been a tendency to mock,
>> and even write responses which at times very patronizing and condescending.
>> They are not only Delhi centric but remain impervious towards the site of
>> conflict – perhaps it's an urban centric perspective which doesn't take the
>> real India in account while pontificating on such issues. So there is a
>> greater need to exercise caution and as well display sensitivity while
>> debating issues significant to our day to day existence.
>>
>> Secondly mocking at an institution of learning just for the fact that 2-3 of
>> its students are suspect displays utter callousness. Prof Mushirul Hasan the
>> Vice Chancellor of Jamia had undergone avery humiliating and agonizing
>> experience of not being allowed inside his university premises for a
>> considerable time. His only guilt was that he had taken an unequivocal stand
>> in favour of democracy and freedom of speech, when he questioned the
>> rationale behind banning Rushdie's controversial book.  So kindly refrain
>> from the mudslinging and senseless campaign.
>>
>> Radhakrishnan
>>
>> PS: the copy of my mail to Shuddha --
>>
>> Dear Mr.Shuddhabrata Sengupta,
>> I have been a subscriber of the Sarai newsletter/mail since around six
>> years.
>>
>> I just wanted you to kindly take into consideration certain developments
>> which I have noticed over the last two years in the sarai mails.
>>
>> 1 - There has been an attempt to create a hierarchy and to an extent
>> conformist opinion that certain issues are sacrosanct and be at the centre
>> of most of the debates for ex the crisis in Jammu & Kashmir, events and
>> developments in Delhi, while very significant develoments in the Northeast,
>> even sporadic developments in Orissa, West Bengal, and other places are
>> relegated to the margins.Its not to question the prominence given to some
>> particlar issues but seek inclusion of other significant issues.
>>
>> 2 - There has been not only very fascinating but has been very educative and
>> stimulating exchanges at times on issues of nationalism, what constitutes a
>> nation and debating about the nation building exercise in India and
>> elsewhere. But what has been missing has been the non inclusion of various
>> actors or constituents in the discourse. There hasn't been any significant
>> attention towards the plight of the marginalised section ie, Dalits,
>> Adivasi,linguistic and religious minorities, their location and plight
>> within the nation, the role of the state and its selective intervention or
>> for that matter the erosion of the 'welfare state'. Sarai needs to transcend
>> the Delhi centric response or reflections even in terms of emotional and
>> intellectual response.
>>
>> 3 - It has often been found that the zones of conflict - northeast, regions
>> down the vindhyas don't find adequate mention nor description, when there
>> are debates on serious issues, which have an impact of the lives and securty
>> of the vast sections of the society - rise of non military threats, the new
>> developments in the study of globalisation, nationalism, secularism, social
>> justice, the rise of regressive/primordial movements, information
>> revolution, environmental movements or questioning the development paradigm
>> etc.
>>
>> I am subject to correction if you feel my observations are misplaced. I look
>> towards your valuable guidance and intervention in this regard.
>>
>> Thanking You
>>
>> With Regards
>>
>> R.Radhakrishnan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote :
>>>Send reader-list mailing list submissions to
>>>      reader-list at sarai.net
>>>
>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>      https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>      reader-list-request at sarai.net
>>>
>>>You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>      reader-list-owner at sarai.net
>>>
>>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>>Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. Re: Radhikarajen's food habits (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
>>>    2. Re: Jamia Millia University should be prosecuted
>>>       (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
>>>    3. Re: What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet (inder salim)
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>Message: 1
>>>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:11:58 +0500
>>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Radhikarajen's food habits
>>>To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in
>>>Cc: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>Message-ID: <e4d2b8128f32.48da82ee at vsnl.net>
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>>Behen Fathima,
>>>    I urge you to go thru the post again, where have I referred any faith ?
>>> I was only talking about the kebabs, and tamasik and sathwik foods, be it
>>> a shivamvij in the hospitality of separatists, or mothers who talk of
>>> innocence of their sons in terror acts. is it a case of what is commonly
>>> known in kannada as Kumbalakai kalla, undre hegalu mutti nodida. ( when
>>> some one remarked that a theft has taken place, another touched his
>>> shoulder to check for stolen guard.)
>>>: )
>>>
>>>  Regards.
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>> From: फ़ातिà¤(R)ा Fatima <sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in>
>>>Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 4:11 pm
>>>Subject: [Reader-list] Radhikarajen's food habits
>>>To: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>
>>> > Dear Radhikarajen
>>> > First you referred to Muslims as meaty kabab-eaters. Now you say:
>>> > the more one eats tamasik food the more is the interest to be in
>>> > the violence. I just found the following definition for tamasik:
>>> >
>>> > "tamasic food is stale, dry, bad smelling, distasteful or
>>> > unpalatable. It increases pessimism, ignorance, lack of common
>>> > sense, greed, laziness, criminal tendencies and doubt."
>>> >
>>> > Well, fresh meaty kebabs (ummm!) are world's tastiest, juiciest,
>>> > good-smelling food that elevate spirits, provide the required
>>> > proteins, fat and other body requirements - yes it does increase
>>> > laziness, and greed (for more kebabs). But criminal tendencies?
>>> > Yes as much as criminal emotions as lauki, bhindi and tori would
>>> > provide.
>>> > With your definition, a famous 5-star hotel's "The Great Kebab
>>> > Factory" is where all terrorists are being trained.
>>> > Do you have the statistics of how much meat is being eaten by the
>>> > non-Muslim world - it will blow your mind.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >      Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on
>>> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
>>> > _________________________________________
>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>>> > list
>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------
>>>
>>>Message: 2
>>>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:14:41 +0500
>>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Jamia Millia University should be
>>>      prosecuted
>>>To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>>>Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>Message-ID: <e211e4da99e9.48da8391 at vsnl.net>
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, this attitude and action of the institutions and NGOs which
>>> makes them communal. It only gives more courage to be fundamentalists in
>>> secular society be it for a hindu or a muslim or a christian, if you have
>>> support to be fanatic why not. !
>>>
>>>Regards.
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>>>Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:55 am
>>>Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia Millia University should be prosecuted
>>>To: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>
>>> > Jamia Millia University should be
>>> > prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
>>> > millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
>>> >
>>> > *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
>>> > suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
>>> > allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
>>> > capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
>>> > terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
>>> > *
>>> >
>>> > **
>>> >
>>> > *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty," varsity
>>> > spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
>>> >
>>> > Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
>>> > 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
>>> > .
>>> >
>>> > There is no provision within this act for the University to
>>> > provide legal
>>> > aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
>>> > guilty or
>>> > not guilty.
>>> >
>>> > Its powers are very clear.
>>> >
>>> > Please visit the following link for more -
>>> > Jamia Millia University should be
>>> > prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
>>> > millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
>>> >
>>> > PTI reports
>>> >
>>> > *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
>>> > suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
>>> > allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
>>> > capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
>>> > terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
>>> > *
>>> >
>>> > **
>>> >
>>> > *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty," varsity
>>> > spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
>>> >
>>> > Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
>>> > 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
>>> > .
>>> >
>>> > There is no provision within this act for the University to
>>> > provide legal
>>> > aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
>>> > guilty or
>>> > not guilty.
>>> >
>>> > Its powers are very clear. -
>>> > Jamia Millia University should be
>>> > prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
>>> > millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
>>> >
>>> > PTI reports
>>> >
>>> > *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
>>> > suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
>>> > allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
>>> > capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
>>> > terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
>>> > *
>>> >
>>> > **
>>> >
>>> > *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty," varsity
>>> > spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
>>> >
>>> > Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
>>> > 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
>>> > .
>>> >
>>> > There is no provision within this act for the University to
>>> > provide legal
>>> > aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
>>> > guilty or
>>> > not guilty.
>>> >
>>> > *Unless of course the University wants to make the argument that
>>> > providinglegal aid to Terrorists is providing a facility to
>>> > promote "national
>>> > integration, secularism and international understanding",
>>> > Offstumped demands
>>> > the Union HRD Ministry to pull up the University Officials for
>>> > acting way
>>> > beyond what the law provides for, failing which they must face
>>> > prosecutionfor aiding and abetting terrorism.*
>>> >
>>> > Its powers are very clear. -
>>> > http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-millia-
>>> > university-should-be-prosecuted/
>>> > _________________________________________
>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>>> > list
>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------
>>>
>>>Message: 3
>>>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:00:30 +0530
>>> From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
>>>      Pamphlet
>>>To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>>Message-ID:
>>>      <47e122a70809240730o2121e1ddj57e89fa3ec71c5d6 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>
>>>Dear  Mr. Kaul sahib
>>>it takes some courage to speak the truth.
>>>
>>>1. what about Boohir, are they kashmiri pandits or not ? are they equal ?
>>>
>>>2  are marriages taking place between upper ( caste ) Kashmri Pandits
>>>and those kashmiri pandits who are either KANDOOR (Bakers) or   SICHT
>>>(tailors)?
>>>
>>>  3 it is a true that Tickoos used to sit behind Dhars and Kauls at
>>>Hari parbhat. may be you dont know, so confirm .
>>>
>>>Besides that have you ever witnessed a kashmiri pandit cleaning a
>>>street, cleaning toilets, repairing shoes.  Why are they all from
>>>muslims cpmmunity?
>>>
>>>How do you think that these jobs should be reserved only for Muslims
>>>in kashmir. You are a proud  kashmiri  pandit, right, but what about
>>>these facts, have guts to answer.
>>>
>>>yes,  when you say ' lanath ' it actually means that you are an
>>>arrogant, a fit case to follow a parveen Tagodia type of politician,
>>>You have future ahead, which is unfortunate for cherished  secular
>>>values of india. This is my observation about you after watching your
>>>reflections on the List.
>>>
>>>but i consider you still my younger brother, so i wont say 'lanth' to
>>>you, to none.
>>>
>>>love
>>>is
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>>><kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Inder Salim,
>>> >
>>> > You forgot that the Kashmiri Pandit community is 100% litter ate, so
>>> > stop
>>> > talking like illiterates. There is no cast ism in Kashmiri Pandits.
>>> >
>>> > You should be ashamed of yourself Inder. You don't even use Tickoo.
>>> > "Aath che wanan laanath". Stop spreading disinformation.
>>> >
>>> > Readers here know clearly; who has political ambitions and is trying to
>>> > appease a particular community.
>>> >
>>> > Inder always has a problem with a Hindu.
>>> >
>>> > God Be with you.
>>> >
>>> > Aditya Raj Kaul
>>> >
>>> > On 9/24/08, chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> You ended the mail with the word 'love' and hence I would love to take
>>> >> this
>>> >> discussion ahead...
>>> >>
>>> >> Let me put in blunt way:
>>> >> Birth of Jesus is under doubt, as Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed
>>> >> existence
>>> >> of old testament much before Jesus. The time mentioned for Jesus birth
>>> >> actually takes him in B.C... And moreover, the Kul Devta of Greece even
>>> >> today is 'Isus Chrisn' and not Jesus Christ.. What is meant by X-Mas...
>>> >> no
>>> >> body knows.. then, what is meant by October, November and December..
>>> >> meaning
>>> >> is not known.. but Oct is Eight (but October is 10th month), Nav is 9
>>> >> (but
>>> >> November is 11th month), Dec or Dus is 10th month (but December is 12th
>>> >> month)... but X denotes 10 and 'Mas' means month.. thus X-Mas is 10th
>>> >> Month
>>> >> that is December... and hence X-Mas is celebrated in December... Part
>>> >> of
>>> >> December nearly always lies in the 10th month of Hindu Calendar..
>>> >> Further.. what is meant by 'Isus' .. no one knows.. it is derived from
>>> >> Hindi word Ishwar... and Christ is reformed shape of Chrisn...
>>> >> As world has always produced good and bad minds, some Mr. Paul, who had
>>> >> himself shown huge cruelty, created this mischeif.. and maligned Chrisn
>>> >> Nity
>>> >> to Christianity....
>>> >> One should believe this, otherwise as I raised questions, all the words
>>> >> become meaningless... and with acceptance of this interpretation,
>>> >> everything
>>> >> suddenly becomes meaningful..
>>> >>
>>> >> Next came Muhammad.. there is no doubt on his birth and death... there
>>> >> is
>>> >> no controversy also.. But his life is also full of controversy... bad
>>> >> and
>>> >> good... Unfortunately what he and his followers prepared as texts for
>>> >> the
>>> >> world is creating instability for humanity... the whole world is now
>>> >> moving
>>> >> towards killing... Muslims kill.. Hindus retaliate and also kill...
>>> >> this has
>>> >> become the practice...
>>> >> Unfortunately Muslims do not know that they are also worshiping Idols
>>> >> at
>>> >> Qiblah... as there are hundreds of Idols broken down and hidden inside
>>> >> the
>>> >> black stone..
>>> >>
>>> >> The difference is as simple as positive and negative -
>>> >> Muslims worship idols behind the wall, Hindus worship them before the
>>> >> wall
>>> >> Muslims worship wall like structure of stone, Hindus worship
>>> >> beautifully
>>> >> carved structure of stone
>>> >> Muslims want their Masjids to be blunt without beauty, HIndus want them
>>> >> to
>>> >> be beautifully decorated with creative carvings representing the
>>> >> creation of
>>> >> GOD. but both require this temple place..
>>> >> Muslims worship in the boundary of time anywhere, HIndus worship
>>> >> timelessly
>>> >> anytime their heart allows them at any place in any direction...
>>> >>
>>> >> My question is:
>>> >> If worship is the necessity, why is the world fighting on it then... Do
>>> >> Muslims and Christians want to say that Hindus do not worship.. If they
>>> >> do
>>> >> not - who is more peaceful and stable..
>>> >> Ah. .. again a discussion will start....
>>> >>
>>> >> Let this thread no more attack Hindus for their way of worship....  Let
>>> >> anyone who is talking secular must include Islam and Christianity also
>>> >> in
>>> >> their scope of attack...
>>> >>
>>> >> love
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----
>>> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:32:23 AM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Dear Chanchal,
>>> >>
>>> >> let us ignore, Aditya Raj Kaul, who has clear  political ambition to
>>> >> talk so lowly regarding issues which are profound and funny at times.
>>> >> There are some Kauls who believe Tickoos are low caste in comparison
>>> >> to Dhars , Kauls or Razdans... which amuses me to no end.  Let us not
>>> >> forget that caste system exists in Kashmiri Pandit community, on this
>>> >> pretext or that.  You know perhaps, but he will himself come out and
>>> >> speak, just wait...
>>> >>
>>> >> But i am talking to you. For me it is always funny to talk about
>>> >> religion. Imagine, the first artist who visualized Ganesha. This is
>>> >> simple problem of proportion for an artist as and when she/he starts
>>> >> to drawi the figure on a surface. The moment you place an Elephant's
>>> >> Head on Human  body, it looks  disproportional and unaesthetic, so the
>>> >> pot belly. It amuses me, that how this figure becomes the most sacred
>>> >> composition, when there are thousand other surreal images in Hindu
>>> >> iconography,  It is very normal for  Hindu believers to see sexuality
>>> >> as part of their belief systems. How can we separate  Krishan from his
>>> >> Gopis, how can remove surgically a Ligum from Yoni which represents
>>> >> Male and Female fertility...
>>> >>
>>> >> there are one million  MF  Hussains,  much better than HUssains,
>>> >> already exiting in Hindu iconography,  I dont see there is a need to
>>> >> compare that with Judo-Christian-Islamic iconography.   That is
>>> >> entirely different. In Hinduism , discourse on sexuality can happen
>>> >> within the system of beleif, without guilt, which is not the case with
>>> >> the later. There has to a Freud, distinctly far away from  a synagogue
>>> >> or a  church to speak on sexuality and its relevance in society.
>>> >> Have not Arabs written about sexuality, or done research on chemicals
>>> >> and mathematics.  Decorative art can come only from such a society.
>>> >> And i see amazing decorative art in Islamic iconography, which is not
>>> >> only sensual but highly aesthetic at the same time. And what about
>>> >> Sufis. Ghazal means to talk to a woman, which clearly indicates  that
>>> >> there is an endless  desire to talk about sexuality. And besides that
>>> >> there are most interesting paintings which have happened in different
>>> >> ages under different rulers. But if fanatics demolish them or burn
>>> >> them, it does not mean that nothing has happened, and nothing is
>>> >> happenning in islamic world .
>>> >>
>>> >> All we need to is to strengthen the moderate voices within Islam, but
>>> >> if we keep on comparing this with that in a narrower sense, we will
>>> >> get nothing but 'hurt'
>>> >>
>>> >> Both the ends of world have come out with their  own ways of living,
>>> >> and that is it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Here, what surprises me is the fact that Hussain drawing were
>>> >> criticzed by Muslims Fundamentalist and Danish cartoon were equally
>>> >> criticized by Hindu right wingers.
>>> >>
>>> >> That is why   we need to be careful to see what they both are doing.
>>> >> I know some  Chruchs  indulge in this kind of publication, to  tease
>>> >> the Hindu mind, but if Hindus see it as a virtue in  their  system of
>>> >> of belief,  the Hindu Religion,  then it wont nurture hate in their
>>> >> hearts.  But we  listen to  a Parveen Tagodia,  a would be parveen ,
>>> >> here, named as Aditya Raj and even Bal Thakery ,  And in Mumbai where
>>> >> there was no one left to listen to their 'Bakwas', they began to drive
>>> >> North Indians our of Maharashtra.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> love
>>> >> is
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 8:48 AM, chanchal malviya
>>> >> <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >> > Your metaphors are not objectionable Mr Inder... And Hindus will not
>>> >> > get
>>> >> > angry if it is brought into discussion... Hindus get angry when these
>>> >> things
>>> >> > are highlighted against them and used to break them from their
>>> >> > faith..
>>> >> > By the way one question: Why don't your metaphor include some stories
>>> >> > of
>>> >> > Muhammad as well?
>>> >> > If you could do this, as we and the whole world already know many,
>>> >> > your
>>> >> > metaphor would sound secular... else it appears that your metaphor
>>> >> > again
>>> >> is
>>> >> > meant to pin-point any other Religion than Islam...
>>> >> > Please modify your metaphor and it would be a healthy discussion...
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----
>>> >> > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:14:25 PM
>>> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
>>> >> > Pamphlet
>>> >> >
>>> >> > thanks pawan ji  for forwarding the pamphlet contents....
>>> >> >
>>> >> > for me these are metaphors, only half educated person will take these
>>> >> > details of these characters as real. The illiterate and poor Hindus
>>> >> > of
>>> >> > India are simple believers.  People  who know how to manipulate these
>>> >> > simple folks are concerned with their personal gains, just their axe
>>> >> > to grind.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Metaphors:- for example,  Veda Vyasa  of Mahabarata was grand father
>>> >> > of both warring factions of the final great war. The epic is such
>>> >> > that
>>> >> > if we dont remember who is legitimate and who is illegitimate , the
>>> >> > war itself becomes meaningless. So, the moment we realize there is
>>> >> > nothing called legitimate or illegitimate we  resolve the conflict,
>>> >> > which was fought fo good against bad.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hindu epics are in fact full of such fantastic ways of coming to
>>> >> > life.
>>> >> > Everybody knows. For example Ganesha was created by Paravati from the
>>> >> > dirt of her own body, even when Lord Shiva, her husband was not
>>> >> > around.. But this will never enrage the Hindu mind, because Parvati
>>> >> > is
>>> >> > Shakti and she is fully equipped to bring anything to life on her
>>> >> > own.
>>> >> > It is quite similar to Jesus coming to life from Mary surrounded by
>>> >> > domestic animals only,  No fuss. But if someone  will point out that
>>> >> > Rama's father was believer of  polygamy, it might look offensive to
>>> >> > some of Hindus.  It all depends who is saying and who is listening.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > A prostitute is a woman like any other respectable woman, like an
>>> >> > illegitimate child, who is as respectable as any other child.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I am conscious about the fact that you will demand to speak freely on
>>> >> > other religious characters as well,  but that might be not be easy
>>> >> > because some of  the believers blend history and faith too intensely.
>>> >> > I see no gain in that, but that becomes a dangerous zone to enter,
>>> >> > unless one has a deep creative urge to take the bull by horns. choice
>>> >> > is yours.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Efforts by some fanatic hindus to mix fantasy of the epics with
>>> >> > temporality will bear no fruits in the end. India has a deep
>>> >> > past...good to feel.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > with love
>>> >> > is
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Shivam Vij शिवà¤(R)à¥
>>> >> > विजà¥
>>> >> > <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> I think it is not enough to merely condemn "both acts" and thus
>>> >> >> equate
>>> >> >> them.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I think what is required is the rule of law - the writers of this
>>> >> >> pamphlet may be charged with the laws against spreading communal
>>> >> >> disharmony; indeed someone could have gone to court, arguing for a
>>> >> >> ban
>>> >> >> on the public distribution of such pamphlets. The writers and
>>> >> >> publishers could have defended the charge or pleaded guilty. The
>>> >> >> court
>>> >> >> could have decided the issue according to the law of the land laid
>>> >> >> down by the Constitution of India.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Instead, the "offended" parties chose to take the law in their own
>>> >> >> hands, and deserve to be tried in a court of law irrespective of
>>> >> >> what
>>> >> >> the provocation was. Whether or not you and I condemn either or both
>>> >> >> acts is irrelevant. It is important that the law take its own
>>> >> >> course,
>>> >> >> be allowed to take its own course, that those guilty of violating
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> law be brought to book. It is this process of justice delivery that
>>> >> >> we
>>> >> >> must all demand, not just mere issuance of condemnations. Bringing
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> guilty to book would also send out a message to all kinds of
>>> >> >> fanatics
>>> >> >> that India is not a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Sikh or Buddhist
>>> >> >> country. It is a democratic, secular republic.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> best
>>> >> >> shivam
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pawan Durani
>>> >> >> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>> The pamphlet which caused attacks on churches had the following
>>> >> contents.
>>> >> >>> Personally i condemn both what was written on the pamphlet as well
>>> >> >>> as
>>> >> >>> attacks on the churches, as that is not what is the answer to a
>>> >> nonsense
>>> >> >>> in
>>> >> >>> a educated society.
>>> >> >>> However the people who incited this through distribution of
>>> >> >>> pamphlets
>>> >> >>> need
>>> >> >>> to be condemned , for being the reason to cause all
>>> >> >>> this unpleasant situation
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Abuse No. 1: Urvashi â€" the daughter of Narayanaâ€" is a
>>> >> >>> prostitute.
>>> >> >>> Vashitha
>>> >> >>> is the son of this prostitute.  He in turn married his own
>>> >> Mother.  Such
>>> >> >>> a
>>> >> >>> degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48)
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> *buse no. 2: Wh**en Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of
>>> >> >>> hell,
>>> >> how
>>> >> >>> can he enlighten others?  Since  **Krishna** himself is a shady
>>> >> >>> character,
>>> >> >>> there is a need for us to  liberate his misled followers. (page
>>> >> >>> 50)*
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Abuse no. 3: t was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita.  Since
>>> >> >>> Brahma,
>>> >> >>> Vishnu
>>> >> >>> and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to
>>> >> >>> consider
>>> >> >>> them
>>> >> >>> as Gods. (page 39)
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Abuse No. 4: When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and
>>> >> >>> Shiva)
>>> >> are
>>> >> >>> consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others.  Their
>>> >> >>> projection
>>> >> >>> as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> buse No.5:  Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he immediately did
>>> >> >>> so.
>>> >> >>> How
>>> >> >>> can such a "evil brahma" be a Creator of this Universe?  How is it
>>> >> >>> possible
>>> >> >>> for both the sinner and the entity which provoked the sin to be
>>> >> >>> gods?
>>> >> >>> (page
>>> >> >>> 39)
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> *Abuse No. 6: God, please liberate the sinful people of **India**
>>> >> >>> who
>>> >> are
>>> >> >>> worshipping False Gods  that believe in the pleasures of  illicit
>>> >> >>> 'Vyabichari' relationships. (Page 39).*
>>> >> >>> _________________________________________
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>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --
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>>> >> >> _________________________________________
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>>>End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 186
>>>********************************************
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