[Reader-list] On Sarai postings

Nazneen Anand Shamsi nazoshmasi at googlemail.com
Thu Sep 25 23:20:06 IST 2008 

:)

On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 4:27 AM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:

> THIS IS WHAT IRAM GUFRAN SAID
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi
> <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Radhakrishnan,
> >
> > I completely empathize with your 'anguish' but one has to bear in mind
> > that what you construe as 'unwarranted personal attacks and slander'
> > is nothing but one of the ways to carry out public conversations.
> >
> > Unfortunately for you and some of the other fourteen hundred members
> > Sarai reader-list, is a 'NON-MODERATED' public platform.
> >
> > We as list members have only two options- either we read all the mails
> > in the spirit of non-moderated public-ness i.e we remain silent or we
> > respond either by exhorting, threatening those who disgust our
> > sensibility or by writing to members of sarai community.
> >
> >  Members of Sarai community it seem, will, however, never pay heed to
> > your gentle plea, to do something, about the state of affairs with
> > respect to reader list.
> >
> > Sometimes I feel that the studied patience on behalf of Sarai
> > community is based on an assumption that this torrent of invectives
> > and profoundly abusive nature of language will average itself out in
> > the long run. I may be wrong on this but nevertheless this is what I
> > feel.
> >
> > I wonder at the resoluteness of Sarai to communicate to us through a
> > silence which on the one hand is indeed poetic, but on the other may
> > seem callous and cavalier when its members in their
> > 'individual/private capacity' of course respond angrily over the
> > nature of mails and in a gentle manner ask people to mind their
> > language.  (Sarai members please don't be insinuated by this, as my
> > intentions are not to attack or slander you personally, far more than
> > that, I greatly respect you but it pains me to see this hypocrisy with
> > respect to an official stance to keep mum most of the times and shout
> > at some of the times(ooops! I forgot that's done in individual
> > capacity!) )
> >
> > I take Radhakrishnan's mail as an opportunity to urge all list
> > members, active/passive/lurkers/provocateurs  to write to Sarai admin,
> > to come up with some form of formal rules of engagement that include
> > punitive measures.
> >
> > Please Regulate!
> >
> > This I say in all earnestness.
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Nazo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 24 Sep 2008 16:48:58 -0000, Radhakrishnan <krishnanrr at rediffmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Dear Folks!
> >> I want to express my anguish about the level of debate and unwarranted
> >> personal attacks and slander. in fact I had raised similar issues
> through an
> >> email to Shuddha. I am making these observations with with deep regret,
> >> since I have high regard for Sarai as a platform for raising and
> debating
> >> significant issues. But since some months there has been a tendency to
> mock,
> >> and even write responses which at times very patronizing and
> condescending.
> >> They are not only Delhi centric but remain impervious towards the site
> of
> >> conflict – perhaps it's an urban centric perspective which doesn't take
> the
> >> real India in account while pontificating on such issues. So there is a
> >> greater need to exercise caution and as well display sensitivity while
> >> debating issues significant to our day to day existence.
> >>
> >> Secondly mocking at an institution of learning just for the fact that
> 2-3 of
> >> its students are suspect displays utter callousness. Prof Mushirul Hasan
> the
> >> Vice Chancellor of Jamia had undergone avery humiliating and agonizing
> >> experience of not being allowed inside his university premises for a
> >> considerable time. His only guilt was that he had taken an unequivocal
> stand
> >> in favour of democracy and freedom of speech, when he questioned the
> >> rationale behind banning Rushdie's controversial book.  So kindly
> refrain
> >> from the mudslinging and senseless campaign.
> >>
> >> Radhakrishnan
> >>
> >> PS: the copy of my mail to Shuddha --
> >>
> >> Dear Mr.Shuddhabrata Sengupta,
> >> I have been a subscriber of the Sarai newsletter/mail since around six
> >> years.
> >>
> >> I just wanted you to kindly take into consideration certain developments
> >> which I have noticed over the last two years in the sarai mails.
> >>
> >> 1 - There has been an attempt to create a hierarchy and to an extent
> >> conformist opinion that certain issues are sacrosanct and be at the
> centre
> >> of most of the debates for ex the crisis in Jammu & Kashmir, events and
> >> developments in Delhi, while very significant develoments in the
> Northeast,
> >> even sporadic developments in Orissa, West Bengal, and other places are
> >> relegated to the margins.Its not to question the prominence given to
> some
> >> particlar issues but seek inclusion of other significant issues.
> >>
> >> 2 - There has been not only very fascinating but has been very educative
> and
> >> stimulating exchanges at times on issues of nationalism, what
> constitutes a
> >> nation and debating about the nation building exercise in India and
> >> elsewhere. But what has been missing has been the non inclusion of
> various
> >> actors or constituents in the discourse. There hasn't been any
> significant
> >> attention towards the plight of the marginalised section ie, Dalits,
> >> Adivasi,linguistic and religious minorities, their location and plight
> >> within the nation, the role of the state and its selective intervention
> or
> >> for that matter the erosion of the 'welfare state'. Sarai needs to
> transcend
> >> the Delhi centric response or reflections even in terms of emotional and
> >> intellectual response.
> >>
> >> 3 - It has often been found that the zones of conflict - northeast,
> regions
> >> down the vindhyas don't find adequate mention nor description, when
> there
> >> are debates on serious issues, which have an impact of the lives and
> securty
> >> of the vast sections of the society - rise of non military threats, the
> new
> >> developments in the study of globalisation, nationalism, secularism,
> social
> >> justice, the rise of regressive/primordial movements, information
> >> revolution, environmental movements or questioning the development
> paradigm
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> I am subject to correction if you feel my observations are misplaced. I
> look
> >> towards your valuable guidance and intervention in this regard.
> >>
> >> Thanking You
> >>
> >> With Regards
> >>
> >> R.Radhakrishnan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote :
> >>>Send reader-list mailing list submissions to
> >>>      reader-list at sarai.net
> >>>
> >>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>>      https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>>      reader-list-request at sarai.net
> >>>
> >>>You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>>      reader-list-owner at sarai.net
> >>>
> >>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >>>than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Today's Topics:
> >>>
> >>>    1. Re: Radhikarajen's food habits (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
> >>>    2. Re: Jamia Millia University should be prosecuted
> >>>       (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
> >>>    3. Re: What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet (inder salim)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>Message: 1
> >>>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:11:58 +0500
> >>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> >>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Radhikarajen's food habits
> >>>To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in
> >>>Cc: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >>>Message-ID: <e4d2b8128f32.48da82ee at vsnl.net>
> >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>>
> >>>Behen Fathima,
> >>>    I urge you to go thru the post again, where have I referred any
> faith ?
> >>> I was only talking about the kebabs, and tamasik and sathwik foods, be
> it
> >>> a shivamvij in the hospitality of separatists, or mothers who talk of
> >>> innocence of their sons in terror acts. is it a case of what is
> commonly
> >>> known in kannada as Kumbalakai kalla, undre hegalu mutti nodida. ( when
> >>> some one remarked that a theft has taken place, another touched his
> >>> shoulder to check for stolen guard.)
> >>>: )
> >>>
> >>>  Regards.
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: फ़ातिà¤(R)ा Fatima <sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in>
> >>>Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 4:11 pm
> >>>Subject: [Reader-list] Radhikarajen's food habits
> >>>To: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >>>
> >>> > Dear Radhikarajen
> >>> > First you referred to Muslims as meaty kabab-eaters. Now you say:
> >>> > the more one eats tamasik food the more is the interest to be in
> >>> > the violence. I just found the following definition for tamasik:
> >>> >
> >>> > "tamasic food is stale, dry, bad smelling, distasteful or
> >>> > unpalatable. It increases pessimism, ignorance, lack of common
> >>> > sense, greed, laziness, criminal tendencies and doubt."
> >>> >
> >>> > Well, fresh meaty kebabs (ummm!) are world's tastiest, juiciest,
> >>> > good-smelling food that elevate spirits, provide the required
> >>> > proteins, fat and other body requirements - yes it does increase
> >>> > laziness, and greed (for more kebabs). But criminal tendencies?
> >>> > Yes as much as criminal emotions as lauki, bhindi and tori would
> >>> > provide.
> >>> > With your definition, a famous 5-star hotel's "The Great Kebab
> >>> > Factory" is where all terrorists are being trained.
> >>> > Do you have the statistics of how much meat is being eaten by the
> >>> > non-Muslim world - it will blow your mind.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >      Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on
> >>> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
> >>> > _________________________________________
> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> >>> > list
> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>Message: 2
> >>>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:14:41 +0500
> >>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> >>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Jamia Millia University should be
> >>>      prosecuted
> >>>To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> >>>Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >>>Message-ID: <e211e4da99e9.48da8391 at vsnl.net>
> >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>>
> >>>Unfortunately, this attitude and action of the institutions and NGOs
> which
> >>> makes them communal. It only gives more courage to be fundamentalists
> in
> >>> secular society be it for a hindu or a muslim or a christian, if you
> have
> >>> support to be fanatic why not. !
> >>>
> >>>Regards.
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> >>>Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:55 am
> >>>Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia Millia University should be prosecuted
> >>>To: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >>>
> >>> > Jamia Millia University should be
> >>> > prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
> >>> > millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
> >>> >
> >>> > *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
> >>> > suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
> >>> > allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
> >>> > capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
> >>> > terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
> >>> > *
> >>> >
> >>> > **
> >>> >
> >>> > *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty,"
> varsity
> >>> > spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
> >>> >
> >>> > Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
> >>> > 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
> >>> > .
> >>> >
> >>> > There is no provision within this act for the University to
> >>> > provide legal
> >>> > aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
> >>> > guilty or
> >>> > not guilty.
> >>> >
> >>> > Its powers are very clear.
> >>> >
> >>> > Please visit the following link for more -
> >>> > Jamia Millia University should be
> >>> > prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
> >>> > millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
> >>> >
> >>> > PTI reports
> >>> >
> >>> > *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
> >>> > suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
> >>> > allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
> >>> > capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
> >>> > terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
> >>> > *
> >>> >
> >>> > **
> >>> >
> >>> > *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty,"
> varsity
> >>> > spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
> >>> >
> >>> > Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
> >>> > 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
> >>> > .
> >>> >
> >>> > There is no provision within this act for the University to
> >>> > provide legal
> >>> > aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
> >>> > guilty or
> >>> > not guilty.
> >>> >
> >>> > Its powers are very clear. -
> >>> > Jamia Millia University should be
> >>> > prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
> >>> > millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
> >>> >
> >>> > PTI reports
> >>> >
> >>> > *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
> >>> > suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
> >>> > allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
> >>> > capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
> >>> > terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
> >>> > *
> >>> >
> >>> > **
> >>> >
> >>> > *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty,"
> varsity
> >>> > spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
> >>> >
> >>> > Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
> >>> > 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
> >>> > .
> >>> >
> >>> > There is no provision within this act for the University to
> >>> > provide legal
> >>> > aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
> >>> > guilty or
> >>> > not guilty.
> >>> >
> >>> > *Unless of course the University wants to make the argument that
> >>> > providinglegal aid to Terrorists is providing a facility to
> >>> > promote "national
> >>> > integration, secularism and international understanding",
> >>> > Offstumped demands
> >>> > the Union HRD Ministry to pull up the University Officials for
> >>> > acting way
> >>> > beyond what the law provides for, failing which they must face
> >>> > prosecutionfor aiding and abetting terrorism.*
> >>> >
> >>> > Its powers are very clear. -
> >>> > http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-millia-
> >>> > university-should-be-prosecuted/
> >>> > _________________________________________
> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
> >>> > list
> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>Message: 3
> >>>Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:00:30 +0530
> >>> From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
> >>>Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
> >>>      Pamphlet
> >>>To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >>>Message-ID:
> >>>      <47e122a70809240730o2121e1ddj57e89fa3ec71c5d6 at mail.gmail.com>
> >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >>>
> >>>Dear  Mr. Kaul sahib
> >>>it takes some courage to speak the truth.
> >>>
> >>>1. what about Boohir, are they kashmiri pandits or not ? are they equal
> ?
> >>>
> >>>2  are marriages taking place between upper ( caste ) Kashmri Pandits
> >>>and those kashmiri pandits who are either KANDOOR (Bakers) or   SICHT
> >>>(tailors)?
> >>>
> >>>  3 it is a true that Tickoos used to sit behind Dhars and Kauls at
> >>>Hari parbhat. may be you dont know, so confirm .
> >>>
> >>>Besides that have you ever witnessed a kashmiri pandit cleaning a
> >>>street, cleaning toilets, repairing shoes.  Why are they all from
> >>>muslims cpmmunity?
> >>>
> >>>How do you think that these jobs should be reserved only for Muslims
> >>>in kashmir. You are a proud  kashmiri  pandit, right, but what about
> >>>these facts, have guts to answer.
> >>>
> >>>yes,  when you say ' lanath ' it actually means that you are an
> >>>arrogant, a fit case to follow a parveen Tagodia type of politician,
> >>>You have future ahead, which is unfortunate for cherished  secular
> >>>values of india. This is my observation about you after watching your
> >>>reflections on the List.
> >>>
> >>>but i consider you still my younger brother, so i wont say 'lanth' to
> >>>you, to none.
> >>>
> >>>love
> >>>is
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> >>><kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> > Inder Salim,
> >>> >
> >>> > You forgot that the Kashmiri Pandit community is 100% litter ate, so
> >>> > stop
> >>> > talking like illiterates. There is no cast ism in Kashmiri Pandits.
> >>> >
> >>> > You should be ashamed of yourself Inder. You don't even use Tickoo.
> >>> > "Aath che wanan laanath". Stop spreading disinformation.
> >>> >
> >>> > Readers here know clearly; who has political ambitions and is trying
> to
> >>> > appease a particular community.
> >>> >
> >>> > Inder always has a problem with a Hindu.
> >>> >
> >>> > God Be with you.
> >>> >
> >>> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >>> >
> >>> > On 9/24/08, chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> You ended the mail with the word 'love' and hence I would love to
> take
> >>> >> this
> >>> >> discussion ahead...
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Let me put in blunt way:
> >>> >> Birth of Jesus is under doubt, as Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed
> >>> >> existence
> >>> >> of old testament much before Jesus. The time mentioned for Jesus
> birth
> >>> >> actually takes him in B.C... And moreover, the Kul Devta of Greece
> even
> >>> >> today is 'Isus Chrisn' and not Jesus Christ.. What is meant by
> X-Mas...
> >>> >> no
> >>> >> body knows.. then, what is meant by October, November and December..
> >>> >> meaning
> >>> >> is not known.. but Oct is Eight (but October is 10th month), Nav is
> 9
> >>> >> (but
> >>> >> November is 11th month), Dec or Dus is 10th month (but December is
> 12th
> >>> >> month)... but X denotes 10 and 'Mas' means month.. thus X-Mas is
> 10th
> >>> >> Month
> >>> >> that is December... and hence X-Mas is celebrated in December...
> Part
> >>> >> of
> >>> >> December nearly always lies in the 10th month of Hindu Calendar..
> >>> >> Further.. what is meant by 'Isus' .. no one knows.. it is derived
> from
> >>> >> Hindi word Ishwar... and Christ is reformed shape of Chrisn...
> >>> >> As world has always produced good and bad minds, some Mr. Paul, who
> had
> >>> >> himself shown huge cruelty, created this mischeif.. and maligned
> Chrisn
> >>> >> Nity
> >>> >> to Christianity....
> >>> >> One should believe this, otherwise as I raised questions, all the
> words
> >>> >> become meaningless... and with acceptance of this interpretation,
> >>> >> everything
> >>> >> suddenly becomes meaningful..
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Next came Muhammad.. there is no doubt on his birth and death...
> there
> >>> >> is
> >>> >> no controversy also.. But his life is also full of controversy...
> bad
> >>> >> and
> >>> >> good... Unfortunately what he and his followers prepared as texts
> for
> >>> >> the
> >>> >> world is creating instability for humanity... the whole world is now
> >>> >> moving
> >>> >> towards killing... Muslims kill.. Hindus retaliate and also kill...
> >>> >> this has
> >>> >> become the practice...
> >>> >> Unfortunately Muslims do not know that they are also worshiping
> Idols
> >>> >> at
> >>> >> Qiblah... as there are hundreds of Idols broken down and hidden
> inside
> >>> >> the
> >>> >> black stone..
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The difference is as simple as positive and negative -
> >>> >> Muslims worship idols behind the wall, Hindus worship them before
> the
> >>> >> wall
> >>> >> Muslims worship wall like structure of stone, Hindus worship
> >>> >> beautifully
> >>> >> carved structure of stone
> >>> >> Muslims want their Masjids to be blunt without beauty, HIndus want
> them
> >>> >> to
> >>> >> be beautifully decorated with creative carvings representing the
> >>> >> creation of
> >>> >> GOD. but both require this temple place..
> >>> >> Muslims worship in the boundary of time anywhere, HIndus worship
> >>> >> timelessly
> >>> >> anytime their heart allows them at any place in any direction...
> >>> >>
> >>> >> My question is:
> >>> >> If worship is the necessity, why is the world fighting on it then...
> Do
> >>> >> Muslims and Christians want to say that Hindus do not worship.. If
> they
> >>> >> do
> >>> >> not - who is more peaceful and stable..
> >>> >> Ah. .. again a discussion will start....
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Let this thread no more attack Hindus for their way of worship....
>  Let
> >>> >> anyone who is talking secular must include Islam and Christianity
> also
> >>> >> in
> >>> >> their scope of attack...
> >>> >>
> >>> >> love
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >>> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> >>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:32:23 AM
> >>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
> Pamphlet
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Dear Chanchal,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> let us ignore, Aditya Raj Kaul, who has clear  political ambition to
> >>> >> talk so lowly regarding issues which are profound and funny at
> times.
> >>> >> There are some Kauls who believe Tickoos are low caste in comparison
> >>> >> to Dhars , Kauls or Razdans... which amuses me to no end.  Let us
> not
> >>> >> forget that caste system exists in Kashmiri Pandit community, on
> this
> >>> >> pretext or that.  You know perhaps, but he will himself come out and
> >>> >> speak, just wait...
> >>> >>
> >>> >> But i am talking to you. For me it is always funny to talk about
> >>> >> religion. Imagine, the first artist who visualized Ganesha. This is
> >>> >> simple problem of proportion for an artist as and when she/he starts
> >>> >> to drawi the figure on a surface. The moment you place an Elephant's
> >>> >> Head on Human  body, it looks  disproportional and unaesthetic, so
> the
> >>> >> pot belly. It amuses me, that how this figure becomes the most
> sacred
> >>> >> composition, when there are thousand other surreal images in Hindu
> >>> >> iconography,  It is very normal for  Hindu believers to see
> sexuality
> >>> >> as part of their belief systems. How can we separate  Krishan from
> his
> >>> >> Gopis, how can remove surgically a Ligum from Yoni which represents
> >>> >> Male and Female fertility...
> >>> >>
> >>> >> there are one million  MF  Hussains,  much better than HUssains,
> >>> >> already exiting in Hindu iconography,  I dont see there is a need to
> >>> >> compare that with Judo-Christian-Islamic iconography.   That is
> >>> >> entirely different. In Hinduism , discourse on sexuality can happen
> >>> >> within the system of beleif, without guilt, which is not the case
> with
> >>> >> the later. There has to a Freud, distinctly far away from  a
> synagogue
> >>> >> or a  church to speak on sexuality and its relevance in society.
> >>> >> Have not Arabs written about sexuality, or done research on
> chemicals
> >>> >> and mathematics.  Decorative art can come only from such a society.
> >>> >> And i see amazing decorative art in Islamic iconography, which is
> not
> >>> >> only sensual but highly aesthetic at the same time. And what about
> >>> >> Sufis. Ghazal means to talk to a woman, which clearly indicates
>  that
> >>> >> there is an endless  desire to talk about sexuality. And besides
> that
> >>> >> there are most interesting paintings which have happened in
> different
> >>> >> ages under different rulers. But if fanatics demolish them or burn
> >>> >> them, it does not mean that nothing has happened, and nothing is
> >>> >> happenning in islamic world .
> >>> >>
> >>> >> All we need to is to strengthen the moderate voices within Islam,
> but
> >>> >> if we keep on comparing this with that in a narrower sense, we will
> >>> >> get nothing but 'hurt'
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Both the ends of world have come out with their  own ways of living,
> >>> >> and that is it.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Here, what surprises me is the fact that Hussain drawing were
> >>> >> criticzed by Muslims Fundamentalist and Danish cartoon were equally
> >>> >> criticized by Hindu right wingers.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> That is why   we need to be careful to see what they both are doing.
> >>> >> I know some  Chruchs  indulge in this kind of publication, to  tease
> >>> >> the Hindu mind, but if Hindus see it as a virtue in  their  system
> of
> >>> >> of belief,  the Hindu Religion,  then it wont nurture hate in their
> >>> >> hearts.  But we  listen to  a Parveen Tagodia,  a would be parveen ,
> >>> >> here, named as Aditya Raj and even Bal Thakery ,  And in Mumbai
> where
> >>> >> there was no one left to listen to their 'Bakwas', they began to
> drive
> >>> >> North Indians our of Maharashtra.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> love
> >>> >> is
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 8:48 AM, chanchal malviya
> >>> >> <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> >> > Your metaphors are not objectionable Mr Inder... And Hindus will
> not
> >>> >> > get
> >>> >> > angry if it is brought into discussion... Hindus get angry when
> these
> >>> >> things
> >>> >> > are highlighted against them and used to break them from their
> >>> >> > faith..
> >>> >> > By the way one question: Why don't your metaphor include some
> stories
> >>> >> > of
> >>> >> > Muhammad as well?
> >>> >> > If you could do this, as we and the whole world already know many,
> >>> >> > your
> >>> >> > metaphor would sound secular... else it appears that your metaphor
> >>> >> > again
> >>> >> is
> >>> >> > meant to pin-point any other Religion than Islam...
> >>> >> > Please modify your metaphor and it would be a healthy
> discussion...
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----
> >>> >> > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> >>> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:14:25 PM
> >>> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
> >>> >> > Pamphlet
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > thanks pawan ji  for forwarding the pamphlet contents....
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > for me these are metaphors, only half educated person will take
> these
> >>> >> > details of these characters as real. The illiterate and poor
> Hindus
> >>> >> > of
> >>> >> > India are simple believers.  People  who know how to manipulate
> these
> >>> >> > simple folks are concerned with their personal gains, just their
> axe
> >>> >> > to grind.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Metaphors:- for example,  Veda Vyasa  of Mahabarata was grand
> father
> >>> >> > of both warring factions of the final great war. The epic is such
> >>> >> > that
> >>> >> > if we dont remember who is legitimate and who is illegitimate ,
> the
> >>> >> > war itself becomes meaningless. So, the moment we realize there is
> >>> >> > nothing called legitimate or illegitimate we  resolve the
> conflict,
> >>> >> > which was fought fo good against bad.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Hindu epics are in fact full of such fantastic ways of coming to
> >>> >> > life.
> >>> >> > Everybody knows. For example Ganesha was created by Paravati from
> the
> >>> >> > dirt of her own body, even when Lord Shiva, her husband was not
> >>> >> > around.. But this will never enrage the Hindu mind, because
> Parvati
> >>> >> > is
> >>> >> > Shakti and she is fully equipped to bring anything to life on her
> >>> >> > own.
> >>> >> > It is quite similar to Jesus coming to life from Mary surrounded
> by
> >>> >> > domestic animals only,  No fuss. But if someone  will point out
> that
> >>> >> > Rama's father was believer of  polygamy, it might look offensive
> to
> >>> >> > some of Hindus.  It all depends who is saying and who is
> listening.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > A prostitute is a woman like any other respectable woman, like an
> >>> >> > illegitimate child, who is as respectable as any other child.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > I am conscious about the fact that you will demand to speak freely
> on
> >>> >> > other religious characters as well,  but that might be not be easy
> >>> >> > because some of  the believers blend history and faith too
> intensely.
> >>> >> > I see no gain in that, but that becomes a dangerous zone to enter,
> >>> >> > unless one has a deep creative urge to take the bull by horns.
> choice
> >>> >> > is yours.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Efforts by some fanatic hindus to mix fantasy of the epics with
> >>> >> > temporality will bear no fruits in the end. India has a deep
> >>> >> > past...good to feel.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > with love
> >>> >> > is
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >> > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Shivam Vij शिवà¤(R)à¥
> >>> >> > विजà¥
> >>> >> > <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >> I think it is not enough to merely condemn "both acts" and thus
> >>> >> >> equate
> >>> >> >> them.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> I think what is required is the rule of law - the writers of this
> >>> >> >> pamphlet may be charged with the laws against spreading communal
> >>> >> >> disharmony; indeed someone could have gone to court, arguing for
> a
> >>> >> >> ban
> >>> >> >> on the public distribution of such pamphlets. The writers and
> >>> >> >> publishers could have defended the charge or pleaded guilty. The
> >>> >> >> court
> >>> >> >> could have decided the issue according to the law of the land
> laid
> >>> >> >> down by the Constitution of India.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> Instead, the "offended" parties chose to take the law in their
> own
> >>> >> >> hands, and deserve to be tried in a court of law irrespective of
> >>> >> >> what
> >>> >> >> the provocation was. Whether or not you and I condemn either or
> both
> >>> >> >> acts is irrelevant. It is important that the law take its own
> >>> >> >> course,
> >>> >> >> be allowed to take its own course, that those guilty of violating
> >>> >> >> the
> >>> >> >> law be brought to book. It is this process of justice delivery
> that
> >>> >> >> we
> >>> >> >> must all demand, not just mere issuance of condemnations.
> Bringing
> >>> >> >> the
> >>> >> >> guilty to book would also send out a message to all kinds of
> >>> >> >> fanatics
> >>> >> >> that India is not a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Sikh or Buddhist
> >>> >> >> country. It is a democratic, secular republic.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> best
> >>> >> >> shivam
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pawan Durani
> >>> >> >> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> >>> >> >> wrote:
> >>> >> >>> The pamphlet which caused attacks on churches had the following
> >>> >> contents.
> >>> >> >>> Personally i condemn both what was written on the pamphlet as
> well
> >>> >> >>> as
> >>> >> >>> attacks on the churches, as that is not what is the answer to a
> >>> >> nonsense
> >>> >> >>> in
> >>> >> >>> a educated society.
> >>> >> >>> However the people who incited this through distribution of
> >>> >> >>> pamphlets
> >>> >> >>> need
> >>> >> >>> to be condemned , for being the reason to cause all
> >>> >> >>> this unpleasant situation
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >>
> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Abuse No. 1: Urvashi â€" the daughter of Narayanaâ€" is a
> >>> >> >>> prostitute.
> >>> >> >>> Vashitha
> >>> >> >>> is the son of this prostitute.  He in turn married his own
> >>> >> Mother.  Such
> >>> >> >>> a
> >>> >> >>> degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48)
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> *buse no. 2: Wh**en Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of
> >>> >> >>> hell,
> >>> >> how
> >>> >> >>> can he enlighten others?  Since  **Krishna** himself is a shady
> >>> >> >>> character,
> >>> >> >>> there is a need for us to  liberate his misled followers. (page
> >>> >> >>> 50)*
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Abuse no. 3: t was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita.  Since
> >>> >> >>> Brahma,
> >>> >> >>> Vishnu
> >>> >> >>> and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to
> >>> >> >>> consider
> >>> >> >>> them
> >>> >> >>> as Gods. (page 39)
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Abuse No. 4: When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and
> >>> >> >>> Shiva)
> >>> >> are
> >>> >> >>> consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others.  Their
> >>> >> >>> projection
> >>> >> >>> as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> buse No.5:  Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he immediately
> did
> >>> >> >>> so.
> >>> >> >>> How
> >>> >> >>> can such a "evil brahma" be a Creator of this Universe?  How is
> it
> >>> >> >>> possible
> >>> >> >>> for both the sinner and the entity which provoked the sin to be
> >>> >> >>> gods?
> >>> >> >>> (page
> >>> >> >>> 39)
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> *Abuse No. 6: God, please liberate the sinful people of
> **India**
> >>> >> >>> who
> >>> >> are
> >>> >> >>> worshipping False Gods  that believe in the pleasures of
>  illicit
> >>> >> >>> 'Vyabichari' relationships. (Page 39).*
> >>> >> >>> _________________________________________
> >>> >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
> >>> >> >>> subscribe in the subject header.
> >>> >> >>> To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> --
> >>> >> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> >>> >> >> _________________________________________
> >>> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
> >>> >> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >>> >> >> To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > --
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> >>> >>
> >>> >> > _________________________________________
> >>> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> >> subscribe
> >>> >> > in the subject header.
> >>> >> > To unsubscribe:
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> >>> >>
> >>> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --
> >>> >>
> >>> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _________________________________________
> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
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> >>> >>
> >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _________________________________________
> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>> >>
> >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> > _________________________________________
> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> > subscribe in the subject header.
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>
> >>>http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> >>>
> >>>------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>reader-list mailing list
> >>>reader-list at sarai.net
> >>>https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 186
> >>>********************************************
> >> _________________________________________
> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe
> >> in the subject header.
> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > _________________________________________
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> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
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>
>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> _________________________________________
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