[Reader-list] On Sarai postings
Nazneen Anand Shamsi
nazoshmasi at googlemail.com
Fri Sep 26 00:47:23 IST 2008
Dear Tapas, dear all,
I don't want to either agree or disagree with you, Tapas. The reason for
this is, because, by either agreeing or disagreeing one is forced to take
sides. I don't subscribe to reader list to either form my belief system or
change it. I subscribe to reader list because, I want to, in all my
earnestness, engage with all that is happening around me.
I value Aditya's, Pawan's or Radhikarajen mails as much as I do Shuddha's,
Shivam's or Inder's. What I don't like is sometimes unhealthy nature of
conversation. Now, for the longest time, I was silent. I thought it was
okay. I thought maybe this is the nature of a public conversation and so on.
Then there were these excellent writeup by many people on how to or how not
to comment/respond. I was okay with that too. But then in the middle of all
this, something changed and now I want to say, something. And I would urge
everyone, who's been subscribing to participate.
Only we can allow ourselves to be corrected. We have to find some way of
engaging with each other.
I really don't care now whether a Pawan is right or an Aarti is correct.
What I WANT is a strict protocol of engagement on the reader-list from the
Sarai team.
This is the only way we can have a decent conversation. If Pawan wants to
expose someone. Then I am all for it. All hypocrites, pseudo-secularists,
fake nationalists must be exposed. If someone wants to have a total anarchy
and is disgusted with the Indian Nation state, I say good that you have this
position. Good that you can articulate it really well and I would love to
read what you have to say.
But this DING-DONG must stop!
Sarai people are silent because these poor fellows are bound by their
commitment for a non-moderated list.
We are not. and I want to plead to the all my fellow members of the reader
list and of course to tongue tied members of Sarai community to please have
a system in place for people to nicely engage with each other.
PLEASE!
Nazo
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:
> It's like a shouting match here between union types trying to decide the
> fate of the nation in a stuffy and hot college canteen with greasy walls and
> little oxygen. No wonder some folks are getting a little confused.
>
>
>
> Nazneen Anand Shamsi wrote:
>
>> :)
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 4:27 AM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> THIS IS WHAT IRAM GUFRAN SAID
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi
>>> <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Radhakrishnan,
>>>>
>>>> I completely empathize with your 'anguish' but one has to bear in mind
>>>> that what you construe as 'unwarranted personal attacks and slander'
>>>> is nothing but one of the ways to carry out public conversations.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately for you and some of the other fourteen hundred members
>>>> Sarai reader-list, is a 'NON-MODERATED' public platform.
>>>>
>>>> We as list members have only two options- either we read all the mails
>>>> in the spirit of non-moderated public-ness i.e we remain silent or we
>>>> respond either by exhorting, threatening those who disgust our
>>>> sensibility or by writing to members of sarai community.
>>>>
>>>> Members of Sarai community it seem, will, however, never pay heed to
>>>> your gentle plea, to do something, about the state of affairs with
>>>> respect to reader list.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I feel that the studied patience on behalf of Sarai
>>>> community is based on an assumption that this torrent of invectives
>>>> and profoundly abusive nature of language will average itself out in
>>>> the long run. I may be wrong on this but nevertheless this is what I
>>>> feel.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder at the resoluteness of Sarai to communicate to us through a
>>>> silence which on the one hand is indeed poetic, but on the other may
>>>> seem callous and cavalier when its members in their
>>>> 'individual/private capacity' of course respond angrily over the
>>>> nature of mails and in a gentle manner ask people to mind their
>>>> language. (Sarai members please don't be insinuated by this, as my
>>>> intentions are not to attack or slander you personally, far more than
>>>> that, I greatly respect you but it pains me to see this hypocrisy with
>>>> respect to an official stance to keep mum most of the times and shout
>>>> at some of the times(ooops! I forgot that's done in individual
>>>> capacity!) )
>>>>
>>>> I take Radhakrishnan's mail as an opportunity to urge all list
>>>> members, active/passive/lurkers/provocateurs to write to Sarai admin,
>>>> to come up with some form of formal rules of engagement that include
>>>> punitive measures.
>>>>
>>>> Please Regulate!
>>>>
>>>> This I say in all earnestness.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards
>>>>
>>>> Nazo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 24 Sep 2008 16:48:58 -0000, Radhakrishnan <krishnanrr at rediffmail.com
>>>> >
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Folks!
>>>>> I want to express my anguish about the level of debate and unwarranted
>>>>> personal attacks and slander. in fact I had raised similar issues
>>>>>
>>>> through an
>>>
>>>> email to Shuddha. I am making these observations with with deep regret,
>>>>> since I have high regard for Sarai as a platform for raising and
>>>>>
>>>> debating
>>>
>>>> significant issues. But since some months there has been a tendency to
>>>>>
>>>> mock,
>>>
>>>> and even write responses which at times very patronizing and
>>>>>
>>>> condescending.
>>>
>>>> They are not only Delhi centric but remain impervious towards the site
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>
>>>> conflict – perhaps it's an urban centric perspective which doesn't take
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>
>>>> real India in account while pontificating on such issues. So there is a
>>>>> greater need to exercise caution and as well display sensitivity while
>>>>> debating issues significant to our day to day existence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly mocking at an institution of learning just for the fact that
>>>>>
>>>> 2-3 of
>>>
>>>> its students are suspect displays utter callousness. Prof Mushirul Hasan
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>
>>>> Vice Chancellor of Jamia had undergone avery humiliating and agonizing
>>>>> experience of not being allowed inside his university premises for a
>>>>> considerable time. His only guilt was that he had taken an unequivocal
>>>>>
>>>> stand
>>>
>>>> in favour of democracy and freedom of speech, when he questioned the
>>>>> rationale behind banning Rushdie's controversial book. So kindly
>>>>>
>>>> refrain
>>>
>>>> from the mudslinging and senseless campaign.
>>>>>
>>>>> Radhakrishnan
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: the copy of my mail to Shuddha --
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Mr.Shuddhabrata Sengupta,
>>>>> I have been a subscriber of the Sarai newsletter/mail since around six
>>>>> years.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just wanted you to kindly take into consideration certain
>>>>> developments
>>>>> which I have noticed over the last two years in the sarai mails.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1 - There has been an attempt to create a hierarchy and to an extent
>>>>> conformist opinion that certain issues are sacrosanct and be at the
>>>>>
>>>> centre
>>>
>>>> of most of the debates for ex the crisis in Jammu & Kashmir, events and
>>>>> developments in Delhi, while very significant develoments in the
>>>>>
>>>> Northeast,
>>>
>>>> even sporadic developments in Orissa, West Bengal, and other places are
>>>>> relegated to the margins.Its not to question the prominence given to
>>>>>
>>>> some
>>>
>>>> particlar issues but seek inclusion of other significant issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 - There has been not only very fascinating but has been very
>>>>> educative
>>>>>
>>>> and
>>>
>>>> stimulating exchanges at times on issues of nationalism, what
>>>>>
>>>> constitutes a
>>>
>>>> nation and debating about the nation building exercise in India and
>>>>> elsewhere. But what has been missing has been the non inclusion of
>>>>>
>>>> various
>>>
>>>> actors or constituents in the discourse. There hasn't been any
>>>>>
>>>> significant
>>>
>>>> attention towards the plight of the marginalised section ie, Dalits,
>>>>> Adivasi,linguistic and religious minorities, their location and plight
>>>>> within the nation, the role of the state and its selective intervention
>>>>>
>>>> or
>>>
>>>> for that matter the erosion of the 'welfare state'. Sarai needs to
>>>>>
>>>> transcend
>>>
>>>> the Delhi centric response or reflections even in terms of emotional and
>>>>> intellectual response.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3 - It has often been found that the zones of conflict - northeast,
>>>>>
>>>> regions
>>>
>>>> down the vindhyas don't find adequate mention nor description, when
>>>>>
>>>> there
>>>
>>>> are debates on serious issues, which have an impact of the lives and
>>>>>
>>>> securty
>>>
>>>> of the vast sections of the society - rise of non military threats, the
>>>>>
>>>> new
>>>
>>>> developments in the study of globalisation, nationalism, secularism,
>>>>>
>>>> social
>>>
>>>> justice, the rise of regressive/primordial movements, information
>>>>> revolution, environmental movements or questioning the development
>>>>>
>>>> paradigm
>>>
>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am subject to correction if you feel my observations are misplaced. I
>>>>>
>>>> look
>>>
>>>> towards your valuable guidance and intervention in this regard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanking You
>>>>>
>>>>> With Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> R.Radhakrishnan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Send reader-list mailing list submissions to
>>>>>> reader-list at sarai.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>> reader-list-owner at sarai.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Re: Radhikarajen's food habits (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
>>>>>> 2. Re: Jamia Millia University should be prosecuted
>>>>>> (radhikarajen at vsnl.net)
>>>>>> 3. Re: What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet (inder salim)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:11:58 +0500
>>>>>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Radhikarajen's food habits
>>>>>> To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in
>>>>>> Cc: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <e4d2b8128f32.48da82ee at vsnl.net>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Behen Fathima,
>>>>>> I urge you to go thru the post again, where have I referred any
>>>>>>
>>>>> faith ?
>>>
>>>> I was only talking about the kebabs, and tamasik and sathwik foods, be
>>>>>>
>>>>> it
>>>
>>>> a shivamvij in the hospitality of separatists, or mothers who talk of
>>>>>> innocence of their sons in terror acts. is it a case of what is
>>>>>>
>>>>> commonly
>>>
>>>> known in kannada as Kumbalakai kalla, undre hegalu mutti nodida. ( when
>>>>>> some one remarked that a theft has taken place, another touched his
>>>>>> shoulder to check for stolen guard.)
>>>>>> : )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: फ़ातिà¤(R)ा Fatima <sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in>
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 4:11 pm
>>>>>> Subject: [Reader-list] Radhikarajen's food habits
>>>>>> To: sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Radhikarajen
>>>>>>> First you referred to Muslims as meaty kabab-eaters. Now you say:
>>>>>>> the more one eats tamasik food the more is the interest to be in
>>>>>>> the violence. I just found the following definition for tamasik:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "tamasic food is stale, dry, bad smelling, distasteful or
>>>>>>> unpalatable. It increases pessimism, ignorance, lack of common
>>>>>>> sense, greed, laziness, criminal tendencies and doubt."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, fresh meaty kebabs (ummm!) are world's tastiest, juiciest,
>>>>>>> good-smelling food that elevate spirits, provide the required
>>>>>>> proteins, fat and other body requirements - yes it does increase
>>>>>>> laziness, and greed (for more kebabs). But criminal tendencies?
>>>>>>> Yes as much as criminal emotions as lauki, bhindi and tori would
>>>>>>> provide.
>>>>>>> With your definition, a famous 5-star hotel's "The Great Kebab
>>>>>>> Factory" is where all terrorists are being trained.
>>>>>>> Do you have the statistics of how much meat is being eaten by the
>>>>>>> non-Muslim world - it will blow your mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on
>>>>>>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
>>>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:14:41 +0500
>>>>>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Jamia Millia University should be
>>>>>> prosecuted
>>>>>> To: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <e211e4da99e9.48da8391 at vsnl.net>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately, this attitude and action of the institutions and NGOs
>>>>>>
>>>>> which
>>>
>>>> makes them communal. It only gives more courage to be fundamentalists
>>>>>>
>>>>> in
>>>
>>>> secular society be it for a hindu or a muslim or a christian, if you
>>>>>>
>>>>> have
>>>
>>>> support to be fanatic why not. !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:55 am
>>>>>> Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia Millia University should be prosecuted
>>>>>> To: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jamia Millia University should be
>>>>>>> prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
>>>>>>> millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
>>>>>>> suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
>>>>>>> allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
>>>>>>> capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
>>>>>>> terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty,"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> varsity
>>>
>>>> spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
>>>>>>> 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no provision within this act for the University to
>>>>>>> provide legal
>>>>>>> aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
>>>>>>> guilty or
>>>>>>> not guilty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its powers are very clear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please visit the following link for more -
>>>>>>> Jamia Millia University should be
>>>>>>> prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
>>>>>>> millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PTI reports
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
>>>>>>> suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
>>>>>>> allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
>>>>>>> capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
>>>>>>> terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty,"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> varsity
>>>
>>>> spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
>>>>>>> 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no provision within this act for the University to
>>>>>>> provide legal
>>>>>>> aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
>>>>>>> guilty or
>>>>>>> not guilty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its powers are very clear. -
>>>>>>> Jamia Millia University should be
>>>>>>> prosecuted<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-
>>>>>>> millia-university-should-be-prosecuted/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PTI reports
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *The Jamia Millia Islamia University would provide legal aid to two
>>>>>>> suspended students who have been arrested by Delhi Police for being
>>>>>>> allegedly involved in the serial blasts in the
>>>>>>> capital<http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/19/war-on-
>>>>>>> terror-offstumped-salute-to-indias-pride/>.
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *"Legal aid would be provided till they are not found guilty,"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> varsity
>>>
>>>> spokesperson Rakshanda Jaleel on Tuesday said.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Offstumped has unearthed the Jamia Millia Islamia Act of
>>>>>>> 1988<http://education.nic.in/cd50years/x/7H/8M/7H8M0101.htm>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no provision within this act for the University to
>>>>>>> provide legal
>>>>>>> aid to students, period, forget personal or university related,
>>>>>>> guilty or
>>>>>>> not guilty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Unless of course the University wants to make the argument that
>>>>>>> providinglegal aid to Terrorists is providing a facility to
>>>>>>> promote "national
>>>>>>> integration, secularism and international understanding",
>>>>>>> Offstumped demands
>>>>>>> the Union HRD Ministry to pull up the University Officials for
>>>>>>> acting way
>>>>>>> beyond what the law provides for, failing which they must face
>>>>>>> prosecutionfor aiding and abetting terrorism.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its powers are very clear. -
>>>>>>> http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/09/23/jamia-millia-
>>>>>>> university-should-be-prosecuted/
>>>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 20:00:30 +0530
>>>>>> From: "inder salim" <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
>>>>>> Pamphlet
>>>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>> <47e122a70809240730o2121e1ddj57e89fa3ec71c5d6 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Mr. Kaul sahib
>>>>>> it takes some courage to speak the truth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. what about Boohir, are they kashmiri pandits or not ? are they
>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>
>>>>> ?
>>>
>>>> 2 are marriages taking place between upper ( caste ) Kashmri Pandits
>>>>>> and those kashmiri pandits who are either KANDOOR (Bakers) or SICHT
>>>>>> (tailors)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3 it is a true that Tickoos used to sit behind Dhars and Kauls at
>>>>>> Hari parbhat. may be you dont know, so confirm .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides that have you ever witnessed a kashmiri pandit cleaning a
>>>>>> street, cleaning toilets, repairing shoes. Why are they all from
>>>>>> muslims cpmmunity?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do you think that these jobs should be reserved only for Muslims
>>>>>> in kashmir. You are a proud kashmiri pandit, right, but what about
>>>>>> these facts, have guts to answer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> yes, when you say ' lanath ' it actually means that you are an
>>>>>> arrogant, a fit case to follow a parveen Tagodia type of politician,
>>>>>> You have future ahead, which is unfortunate for cherished secular
>>>>>> values of india. This is my observation about you after watching your
>>>>>> reflections on the List.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but i consider you still my younger brother, so i wont say 'lanth' to
>>>>>> you, to none.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> love
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>>>>>> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inder Salim,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You forgot that the Kashmiri Pandit community is 100% litter ate, so
>>>>>>> stop
>>>>>>> talking like illiterates. There is no cast ism in Kashmiri Pandits.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should be ashamed of yourself Inder. You don't even use Tickoo.
>>>>>>> "Aath che wanan laanath". Stop spreading disinformation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Readers here know clearly; who has political ambitions and is trying
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> appease a particular community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inder always has a problem with a Hindu.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> God Be with you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aditya Raj Kaul
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/24/08, chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You ended the mail with the word 'love' and hence I would love to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> take
>>>
>>>> this
>>>>>>>> discussion ahead...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me put in blunt way:
>>>>>>>> Birth of Jesus is under doubt, as Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed
>>>>>>>> existence
>>>>>>>> of old testament much before Jesus. The time mentioned for Jesus
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> birth
>>>
>>>> actually takes him in B.C... And moreover, the Kul Devta of Greece
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> even
>>>
>>>> today is 'Isus Chrisn' and not Jesus Christ.. What is meant by
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> X-Mas...
>>>
>>>> no
>>>>>>>> body knows.. then, what is meant by October, November and December..
>>>>>>>> meaning
>>>>>>>> is not known.. but Oct is Eight (but October is 10th month), Nav is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 9
>>>
>>>> (but
>>>>>>>> November is 11th month), Dec or Dus is 10th month (but December is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 12th
>>>
>>>> month)... but X denotes 10 and 'Mas' means month.. thus X-Mas is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 10th
>>>
>>>> Month
>>>>>>>> that is December... and hence X-Mas is celebrated in December...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Part
>>>
>>>> of
>>>>>>>> December nearly always lies in the 10th month of Hindu Calendar..
>>>>>>>> Further.. what is meant by 'Isus' .. no one knows.. it is derived
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from
>>>
>>>> Hindi word Ishwar... and Christ is reformed shape of Chrisn...
>>>>>>>> As world has always produced good and bad minds, some Mr. Paul, who
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> had
>>>
>>>> himself shown huge cruelty, created this mischeif.. and maligned
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chrisn
>>>
>>>> Nity
>>>>>>>> to Christianity....
>>>>>>>> One should believe this, otherwise as I raised questions, all the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> words
>>>
>>>> become meaningless... and with acceptance of this interpretation,
>>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>>> suddenly becomes meaningful..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Next came Muhammad.. there is no doubt on his birth and death...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there
>>>
>>>> is
>>>>>>>> no controversy also.. But his life is also full of controversy...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bad
>>>
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> good... Unfortunately what he and his followers prepared as texts
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> world is creating instability for humanity... the whole world is now
>>>>>>>> moving
>>>>>>>> towards killing... Muslims kill.. Hindus retaliate and also kill...
>>>>>>>> this has
>>>>>>>> become the practice...
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately Muslims do not know that they are also worshiping
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Idols
>>>
>>>> at
>>>>>>>> Qiblah... as there are hundreds of Idols broken down and hidden
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> inside
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> black stone..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The difference is as simple as positive and negative -
>>>>>>>> Muslims worship idols behind the wall, Hindus worship them before
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> wall
>>>>>>>> Muslims worship wall like structure of stone, Hindus worship
>>>>>>>> beautifully
>>>>>>>> carved structure of stone
>>>>>>>> Muslims want their Masjids to be blunt without beauty, HIndus want
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> them
>>>
>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be beautifully decorated with creative carvings representing the
>>>>>>>> creation of
>>>>>>>> GOD. but both require this temple place..
>>>>>>>> Muslims worship in the boundary of time anywhere, HIndus worship
>>>>>>>> timelessly
>>>>>>>> anytime their heart allows them at any place in any direction...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My question is:
>>>>>>>> If worship is the necessity, why is the world fighting on it then...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do
>>>
>>>> Muslims and Christians want to say that Hindus do not worship.. If
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> they
>>>
>>>> do
>>>>>>>> not - who is more peaceful and stable..
>>>>>>>> Ah. .. again a discussion will start....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let this thread no more attack Hindus for their way of worship....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let
>>>
>>>> anyone who is talking secular must include Islam and Christianity
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> also
>>>
>>>> in
>>>>>>>> their scope of attack...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> love
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>>>>> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:32:23 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pamphlet
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Chanchal,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> let us ignore, Aditya Raj Kaul, who has clear political ambition to
>>>>>>>> talk so lowly regarding issues which are profound and funny at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> times.
>>>
>>>> There are some Kauls who believe Tickoos are low caste in comparison
>>>>>>>> to Dhars , Kauls or Razdans... which amuses me to no end. Let us
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> not
>>>
>>>> forget that caste system exists in Kashmiri Pandit community, on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this
>>>
>>>> pretext or that. You know perhaps, but he will himself come out and
>>>>>>>> speak, just wait...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But i am talking to you. For me it is always funny to talk about
>>>>>>>> religion. Imagine, the first artist who visualized Ganesha. This is
>>>>>>>> simple problem of proportion for an artist as and when she/he starts
>>>>>>>> to drawi the figure on a surface. The moment you place an Elephant's
>>>>>>>> Head on Human body, it looks disproportional and unaesthetic, so
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> pot belly. It amuses me, that how this figure becomes the most
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sacred
>>>
>>>> composition, when there are thousand other surreal images in Hindu
>>>>>>>> iconography, It is very normal for Hindu believers to see
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sexuality
>>>
>>>> as part of their belief systems. How can we separate Krishan from
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> his
>>>
>>>> Gopis, how can remove surgically a Ligum from Yoni which represents
>>>>>>>> Male and Female fertility...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there are one million MF Hussains, much better than HUssains,
>>>>>>>> already exiting in Hindu iconography, I dont see there is a need to
>>>>>>>> compare that with Judo-Christian-Islamic iconography. That is
>>>>>>>> entirely different. In Hinduism , discourse on sexuality can happen
>>>>>>>> within the system of beleif, without guilt, which is not the case
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> with
>>>
>>>> the later. There has to a Freud, distinctly far away from a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> synagogue
>>>
>>>> or a church to speak on sexuality and its relevance in society.
>>>>>>>> Have not Arabs written about sexuality, or done research on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> chemicals
>>>
>>>> and mathematics. Decorative art can come only from such a society.
>>>>>>>> And i see amazing decorative art in Islamic iconography, which is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> not
>>>
>>>> only sensual but highly aesthetic at the same time. And what about
>>>>>>>> Sufis. Ghazal means to talk to a woman, which clearly indicates
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that
>>>
>>>> there is an endless desire to talk about sexuality. And besides
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that
>>>
>>>> there are most interesting paintings which have happened in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> different
>>>
>>>> ages under different rulers. But if fanatics demolish them or burn
>>>>>>>> them, it does not mean that nothing has happened, and nothing is
>>>>>>>> happenning in islamic world .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All we need to is to strengthen the moderate voices within Islam,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but
>>>
>>>> if we keep on comparing this with that in a narrower sense, we will
>>>>>>>> get nothing but 'hurt'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Both the ends of world have come out with their own ways of living,
>>>>>>>> and that is it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here, what surprises me is the fact that Hussain drawing were
>>>>>>>> criticzed by Muslims Fundamentalist and Danish cartoon were equally
>>>>>>>> criticized by Hindu right wingers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is why we need to be careful to see what they both are doing.
>>>>>>>> I know some Chruchs indulge in this kind of publication, to tease
>>>>>>>> the Hindu mind, but if Hindus see it as a virtue in their system
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of
>>>
>>>> of belief, the Hindu Religion, then it wont nurture hate in their
>>>>>>>> hearts. But we listen to a Parveen Tagodia, a would be parveen ,
>>>>>>>> here, named as Aditya Raj and even Bal Thakery , And in Mumbai
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> where
>>>
>>>> there was no one left to listen to their 'Bakwas', they began to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> drive
>>>
>>>> North Indians our of Maharashtra.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> love
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 8:48 AM, chanchal malviya
>>>>>>>> <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your metaphors are not objectionable Mr Inder... And Hindus will
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> not
>>>
>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> angry if it is brought into discussion... Hindus get angry when
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> these
>>>
>>>> things
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> are highlighted against them and used to break them from their
>>>>>>>>> faith..
>>>>>>>>> By the way one question: Why don't your metaphor include some
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> stories
>>>
>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> Muhammad as well?
>>>>>>>>> If you could do this, as we and the whole world already know many,
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> metaphor would sound secular... else it appears that your metaphor
>>>>>>>>> again
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> meant to pin-point any other Religion than Islam...
>>>>>>>>> Please modify your metaphor and it would be a healthy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> discussion...
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>>>>>> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:14:25 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
>>>>>>>>> Pamphlet
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> thanks pawan ji for forwarding the pamphlet contents....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for me these are metaphors, only half educated person will take
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> these
>>>
>>>> details of these characters as real. The illiterate and poor
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hindus
>>>
>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> India are simple believers. People who know how to manipulate
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> these
>>>
>>>> simple folks are concerned with their personal gains, just their
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> axe
>>>
>>>> to grind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Metaphors:- for example, Veda Vyasa of Mahabarata was grand
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> father
>>>
>>>> of both warring factions of the final great war. The epic is such
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> if we dont remember who is legitimate and who is illegitimate ,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> war itself becomes meaningless. So, the moment we realize there is
>>>>>>>>> nothing called legitimate or illegitimate we resolve the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> conflict,
>>>
>>>> which was fought fo good against bad.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hindu epics are in fact full of such fantastic ways of coming to
>>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>>> Everybody knows. For example Ganesha was created by Paravati from
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> dirt of her own body, even when Lord Shiva, her husband was not
>>>>>>>>> around.. But this will never enrage the Hindu mind, because
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Parvati
>>>
>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> Shakti and she is fully equipped to bring anything to life on her
>>>>>>>>> own.
>>>>>>>>> It is quite similar to Jesus coming to life from Mary surrounded
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> by
>>>
>>>> domestic animals only, No fuss. But if someone will point out
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that
>>>
>>>> Rama's father was believer of polygamy, it might look offensive
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> some of Hindus. It all depends who is saying and who is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> listening.
>>>
>>>> A prostitute is a woman like any other respectable woman, like an
>>>>>>>>> illegitimate child, who is as respectable as any other child.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am conscious about the fact that you will demand to speak freely
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> on
>>>
>>>> other religious characters as well, but that might be not be easy
>>>>>>>>> because some of the believers blend history and faith too
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> intensely.
>>>
>>>> I see no gain in that, but that becomes a dangerous zone to enter,
>>>>>>>>> unless one has a deep creative urge to take the bull by horns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> choice
>>>
>>>> is yours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Efforts by some fanatic hindus to mix fantasy of the epics with
>>>>>>>>> temporality will bear no fruits in the end. India has a deep
>>>>>>>>> past...good to feel.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with love
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Shivam Vij शिवà¤(R)à¥
>>>>>>>>> विजà¥
>>>>>>>>> <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think it is not enough to merely condemn "both acts" and thus
>>>>>>>>>> equate
>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think what is required is the rule of law - the writers of this
>>>>>>>>>> pamphlet may be charged with the laws against spreading communal
>>>>>>>>>> disharmony; indeed someone could have gone to court, arguing for
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>
>>>> ban
>>>>>>>>>> on the public distribution of such pamphlets. The writers and
>>>>>>>>>> publishers could have defended the charge or pleaded guilty. The
>>>>>>>>>> court
>>>>>>>>>> could have decided the issue according to the law of the land
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> laid
>>>
>>>> down by the Constitution of India.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Instead, the "offended" parties chose to take the law in their
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> own
>>>
>>>> hands, and deserve to be tried in a court of law irrespective of
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>> the provocation was. Whether or not you and I condemn either or
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> both
>>>
>>>> acts is irrelevant. It is important that the law take its own
>>>>>>>>>> course,
>>>>>>>>>> be allowed to take its own course, that those guilty of violating
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> law be brought to book. It is this process of justice delivery
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>
>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> must all demand, not just mere issuance of condemnations.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bringing
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> guilty to book would also send out a message to all kinds of
>>>>>>>>>> fanatics
>>>>>>>>>> that India is not a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Sikh or Buddhist
>>>>>>>>>> country. It is a democratic, secular republic.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>> shivam
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pawan Durani
>>>>>>>>>> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The pamphlet which caused attacks on churches had the following
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> contents.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Personally i condemn both what was written on the pamphlet as
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>
>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> attacks on the churches, as that is not what is the answer to a
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> nonsense
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> a educated society.
>>>>>>>>>>> However the people who incited this through distribution of
>>>>>>>>>>> pamphlets
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> to be condemned , for being the reason to cause all
>>>>>>>>>>> this unpleasant situation
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************
>>>
>>>> Abuse No. 1: Urvashi â€" the daughter of Narayanaâ€" is a
>>>>>>>>>>> prostitute.
>>>>>>>>>>> Vashitha
>>>>>>>>>>> is the son of this prostitute. He in turn married his own
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mother. Such
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *buse no. 2: Wh**en Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of
>>>>>>>>>>> hell,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> can he enlighten others? Since **Krishna** himself is a shady
>>>>>>>>>>> character,
>>>>>>>>>>> there is a need for us to liberate his misled followers. (page
>>>>>>>>>>> 50)*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Abuse no. 3: t was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita. Since
>>>>>>>>>>> Brahma,
>>>>>>>>>>> Vishnu
>>>>>>>>>>> and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to
>>>>>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> as Gods. (page 39)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Abuse No. 4: When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and
>>>>>>>>>>> Shiva)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others. Their
>>>>>>>>>>> projection
>>>>>>>>>>> as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> buse No.5: Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he immediately
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> did
>>>
>>>> so.
>>>>>>>>>>> How
>>>>>>>>>>> can such a "evil brahma" be a Creator of this Universe? How is
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>
>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>> for both the sinner and the entity which provoked the sin to be
>>>>>>>>>>> gods?
>>>>>>>>>>> (page
>>>>>>>>>>> 39)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Abuse No. 6: God, please liberate the sinful people of
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **India**
>>>
>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> worshipping False Gods that believe in the pleasures of
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> illicit
>>>
>>>> 'Vyabichari' relationships. (Page 39).*
>>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>
>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
>>>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>
>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...
>
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