[Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet

inder salim indersalim at gmail.com
Sun Sep 28 10:55:29 IST 2008 

Mr. Kaul Sahib,

Imagine, if you were a Buhur ( usually Tickoos ) and not a Kaul, would
you write all this?

you suggest me to get my children married in Buhur community ,
so is this how you think about a social change ?

forcing children to marry against their will, just because we want
some social change. it is indeed silly to think so.

the right thing is to acknowledge that Kashmiri pandits have many
levels of hierarchy, the lowest in the ladder are Tickoos, Buhur,
Tailors, Backers,

if there were not Muslims communities  in kashmir who clean the
toilets then there would have been more such down the ladder....

it is time to think what a community is all about? are kashmiri
pandits realy peace loving people.

there is indeed a place called fool's paradise, where one can be, if
you deny the facts.


yours brotherly
is

On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
<kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Inder Salim ji,
>
> You are engulfed in this unfortunate psychological incorrectness of history.
> As I said before, your arguments are based on rumours; and I have humbly put
> forth some historical perspectives in front of you of what is the truth.
>
> No, I don't agree that their is any kind of division or discrimination among
> the Pandit Community. I said you marry your daughter/son; just for your
> personal satisfaction; not mine.
> If you experience, one such wedding in your own family; it might help you
> identify more closer to reality.
>
> I don't understand why you want to remain in dark and love being blind about
> history and the truth of the past.
>
> Its high time your read those two books advised by me. Otherwise, you will
> continue to live in a fools paradise.
>
> I'm astonished with the fact, that why do you want to encourage hatred, and
> discrimination among the peace-loving Pandits.
>
> By your, angry childish mails above, I'm sure you have never even heard of
> Rajatarangini and Nilmat-purana.
>
> So, its best you take time out from Reader's list and study history. Even I
> enjoy reading history, and learning from the past.
>
> You have been ignorant all the time, at least here on the Sarai Network.
> Hope better sense prevails upon you.
>
> P.S. - It seems you don't have an argument as before, so it would be in the
> best interest of the Sarai reader's if you kindly refrain from continuing
> this thread. All is upto you. :-)
>
>
> Love
> Aditya Raj Kaul
>
> On 9/27/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> dear kaul sahib
>>
>> dont feel cornered by your own quotes and understanding of history,
>> feel free, even if you are wrong, there is always time for
>> corrections.
>>
>> you agree that there are no marraiges taking place between Buhurs and
>> Kauls . ( i should marry one, just to satisfy you, you make me laugh )
>>
>> you agree that most Buhurs use their surname as Tickoo.
>>
>> you agree that you quote, history, which is not yours which is more
>> authentic.
>>
>> And  those sections of society who suffer for ages because of their
>> surnames, caste or colour or religion should abandon that belonging.
>> Ambedkar was right that all the schedule caste people should change
>> their religion, say Budhism.
>>
>> Why not, i beleive, Buhurs ( a  minority )  who dont enjoy a the right
>> kind of stauts amongst proud  Kahsmiri pandits should change their
>> religion, or do something to escape this label LAJBATTA.
>>
>>   Why should some people continue to suffer for this reason or that. we
>> should be rational in our approach to this social problem.
>>
>> what is the fear ?
>>
>> love
>> is
>>
>> Dear Radhika ji
>>
>> thanks for your kind response. i am not dividing kashmiri pandits. But
>> it is a fact that Tickoo never dared to sit in front Kauls or Dhars at
>> Hari Parbat shrine. This is a fact. what is so wrong to talk about it.
>>
>> rgards
>> is
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>>
>> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Inder Salim ji,
>> >
>> >      Considering your age and some knowledge of Kashmir, I didn't expect
>> at
>> > least such a pathetic and immature response from your end.
>> >
>> > I just quoted some references from historical texts; which you may have
>> > ignored for reasons best known to you. At no point did I push you to
>> agree
>> > with me or my point; it was plain history which I quoted. In response to
>> it;
>> > your e-mail doesn't substantiate on anything.
>> >
>> > I don't and shouldn't bother about your personal remarks. You have from
>> very
>> > long spreading disinformation among people who don't know much about
>> > Kashmir. Unfortunate.
>> >
>> > I never said Buhur's are not Kashmiri Pandits. Please stop being sick.
>> >
>> > Read History, that will help you refresh a bit. Grow up and leave the
>> > appeasement mindset.
>> >
>> > You have been claiming from last so many e-mails that Buhur's and KP's
>> don't
>> > have weddings among each other. Why don't you start this remarkable step
>> for
>> > your personal satisfaction from your own home ? Sounds Fantastic. Isn't
>> it ?
>> >
>> > P.S. - Your response is in fit of anger and has less or almost no
>> hostorical
>> > basis. Kindly educate yourself. Read my previous e-mail again and the two
>> > books that I've mentioned. It will only help you.
>> >
>> > Love
>> > Aditya Raj Kaul
>> >
>> > On 9/27/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dear Kaul sahib,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Now, about Buhur as you mentioned rightly. Their origin is not certain.
>> >> Though Buhur's consider themselves to be the true specimen of Kashmiri
>> >> Pandits belonging to Malmasi division. Pandit Anand Koul in "The
>> Kashmiri
>> >> Pandit" calls them by the name of Lejbhatta.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> the above para is from your own response.   This is what Hitler too
>> >> might have said about  non-Aryan race in Germany.
>> >>
>> >> " their origin is not certain, they belong to this division or that "
>> >> Watch your observation.  What do you mean by  true specimen, it is
>> >> very sad that you dont consider Buhur as a true kashmiri pandits.  "
>> >> MalMasi" perhaps it means outsiders in comparison to ' Banmasi' who
>> >> are indigenous.  And, here interstingly, outsiders mean those hindus
>> >> who have come to kashmir from India. That means you consider Hindus
>> >> from India inferior to Kashmiri Pandits. Is it so ?
>> >>
>> >> again Pandit Anand Kaul ( KAUL ) writes, as you quote him that these
>> >> are LejBhattas.  ( those who cook in earthenwares, or those who
>> >> returned back to Pandit fold after a brief conversion to  Islam )
>> >> Sad. That  you still beleive LejBhatta, which is almost a slang .
>> >>
>> >> You must know why Buhurs used their surnames as TICKOO.  You must know
>> >> that the surnames in kashmir play a vital role, as in any other
>> >> society. Kashmiri pandits  in general dont approve a marraige between
>> >> Buhurs and Kauls,etc.
>> >>
>> >> Surprising,  those pandits who perform religous rituals  ( Bhahmins )
>> >> are also considered LOW in comparison to Kauls etc.  there again no
>> >> marriages  happen between Kauls and them.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> One should not be ashamed of what has happened in the past, but one
>> >> should restore human dignity of the other.... it begins with self
>> >> introspection, which is thought...
>> >>
>> >> so think, why you dont want to to speak about these fact as they are.
>> >> you  will feel free, just have  some courage.
>> >>
>> >> again, those Kashmiri muslims who clean toilets and repair shoes have
>> >> their own shrines and mosques in their vicinity where they live.
>> >> so for examples, again there are no inter-marriages happening  between
>> >> them and the rest....
>> >>
>> >>   Dont  we had a   Buhur mohalla  in Bijbehara, in srinagar as well...
>> >>   yes, they dont have sepearate shrines and  deities, and they consider
>> >> themselves as Kashmiri Pandits, but you dont, Pity
>> >>
>> >> love
>> >> is
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>> >>
>> >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Shri Inder Salim,
>> >> >
>> >> > The courage with which you spread mis-information astonishes me; but
>> we
>> >> have
>> >> > always had such people who want to malign their own community,
>> sometimes
>> >> for
>> >> > pleasure and at times without even a reason to such unfortunate rare
>> >> > behaviour. Maybe, Psychologists would help you find a one time
>> solution
>> >> to
>> >> > it.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm no master in history; not even on Kashmir; but I sure have some
>> basic
>> >> > knowledge from my family, elders and even a few books that I've read;
>> >> that I
>> >> > can share with you; to gets your facts right. I'm happy that there
>> still
>> >> > exist historical texts which can guide you to truth. Kindly forget
>> your
>> >> > appeasement state of mind; when you study history especially on
>> Kashmir.
>> >> >
>> >> > Since, you started this debate by raising the issue of surnames and
>> >> > allegedly claimed that there have been discriminatory mindset attached
>> to
>> >> > it, let me begin helping you understand your own surname.
>> >> >
>> >> > 'TIKOO' - It is said to have originated from the 'Trika'. The members
>> of
>> >> > this family were special devotees of the godess 'Tripura'. Fauq has
>> given
>> >> > one more explanation stating that an ancestor of this family adopted a
>> >> > non-Brahman boy who was deemed to have become a Brahman by a Tika (a
>> >> sacred
>> >> > mark on the forehead of a Brahman). He and his descendants were later
>> >> > nicknamed as Tiku.
>> >> > The use of surnames in ancient Kashmir is negligible, present Kashmiri
>> >> > surnames, have more or less evolved during the Muslim and Sikh rule.
>> It
>> >> is
>> >> > stated that almost all the Kashmiri Pandits were Kaul's and they were
>> >> later
>> >> > on subdivided according to different nicknames and with the passage of
>> >> time,
>> >> > these nicknames became permanent surnames. There seems to be some
>> truth
>> >> in
>> >> > this statement primarily because all the Kashmiri Pandits are
>> Shaivites
>> >> and
>> >> > Mahakoul is one of the names of Lord Shiva, and secondly because the
>> >> number
>> >> > of nicknames even now attached with the surname Kaul is largest of
>> all.
>> >> >
>> >> > Prof. R.K. Kaul in his book "Sociology of Names and Nicknames of
>> India"
>> >> with
>> >> > special reference to Kashmir, that, "Moreover, in recent years the use
>> of
>> >> > nicknames is being progressively discarded and the surname Koul is
>> being
>> >> > adopted more than any other surname by almost all such people.
>> >> >
>> >> > Now, about Buhur as you mentioned rightly. Their origin is not
>> certain.
>> >> > Though Buhur's consider themselves to be the true specimen of Kashmiri
>> >> > Pandits belonging to Malmasi division. Pandit Anand Koul in "The
>> Kashmiri
>> >> > Pandit" calls them by the name of Lejbhatta.
>> >> >
>> >> > And, Let me clarify that I've all respect for you as a Kashmiri and as
>> >> well
>> >> > as an elder; but I said "Laanath" and still stand with it firmly
>> because
>> >> you
>> >> > always try to ignore history, truth and have been always ignorant of
>> your
>> >> > surname. Also, your e-mail reflects your unfortunate thinking, which
>> is
>> >> > actually disastrous.
>> >> >
>> >> > Again, your claim about Hari Parbat; is truely based on falsehood. You
>> >> > yourself are from Trika; the originator; how can you even speak of
>> such
>> >> > discrimination. Stop making fun of yourself atleast.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm and will always remain a proud Kashmiri Pandit. And, for you I
>> only
>> >> have
>> >> > sympathies. I never asked you about your observations on me. You may
>> >> kindly
>> >> > keep those words with you. I would be happy if you utilise that time
>> in
>> >> > reading history and framing the right opinion and not spread unwanted
>> >> > hatred. There was and will remain no discrimination among Kashmiri
>> >> Pandits
>> >> >
>> >> > Kashmiri Pandits have always been peace loving and have educated the
>> >> world;
>> >> > don't degrade our community by such petty things.
>> >> >
>> >> > Hope you ponder over a bit about the above and read history; instead
>> of
>> >> > going along with the wind of rumours.
>> >> >
>> >> > Love
>> >> > Aditya Raj Kaul
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 9/24/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dear  Mr. Kaul sahib
>> >> >> it takes some courage to speak the truth.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1. what about Boohir, are they kashmiri pandits or not ? are they
>> equal
>> >> ?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2  are marriages taking place between upper ( caste ) Kashmri Pandits
>> >> >> and those kashmiri pandits who are either KANDOOR (Bakers) or   SICHT
>> >> >> (tailors)?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   3 it is a true that Tickoos used to sit behind Dhars and Kauls at
>> >> >> Hari parbhat. may be you dont know, so confirm .
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Besides that have you ever witnessed a kashmiri pandit cleaning a
>> >> >> street, cleaning toilets, repairing shoes.  Why are they all from
>> >> >> muslims cpmmunity?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> How do you think that these jobs should be reserved only for Muslims
>> >> >> in kashmir. You are a proud  kashmiri  pandit, right, but what about
>> >> >> these facts, have guts to answer.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> yes,  when you say ' lanath ' it actually means that you are an
>> >> >> arrogant, a fit case to follow a parveen Tagodia type of politician,
>> >> >> You have future ahead, which is unfortunate for cherished  secular
>> >> >> values of india. This is my observation about you after watching your
>> >> >> reflections on the List.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> but i consider you still my younger brother, so i wont say 'lanth' to
>> >> >> you, to none.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> love
>> >> >> is
>>
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