[Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet
radhikarajen at vsnl.net
radhikarajen at vsnl.net
Sun Sep 28 14:14:53 IST 2008
Dear Partha,
hindu way of life was not founded by one "person" so none need to be spokesperson of that way of life. I give out my thoughts as I see the hindu society now, in 2008, more aware of the divisive games than ever before. It is just that all these castes were made more obivious by the OBC leaders and fuedal lords with british rulers and even today you can see the diggy raja, Arjun Langda cater to this kind of divisve game of caste plitics with a Lalu dancing for yadav votes, vasundara cajoling gujjar commune for votes. But it is beginning of the end in democratic life of divisve games as every citizen now has aspirations to have better governance.
Regards.
----- Original Message -----
From: Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet
To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Dear Radhikarajen,
>
> However we may disclaim it, caste still remains a strong factor
> which has
> affected all religions in India - including Muslims & Christians.
>
> Dalits being beaten / killed and otherwise oppressed is a daily
> occurence -
> and that is birth based. Do not understand how you make this
> ridiculousclaim of "we hindus have understood clearly that castes
> are vocation based
> and not birth based" - unless you have suddenly become the
> spokesperson for
> all Hindus ?
>
> As for Kashmir, it is already divided on a metter of faith. And if
> ever that
> gets resolved it will become a fight on caste - just as it is in
> Rajasthan -
> and do note that in Rajasthan it is Hindu's asking to be scheduled
> to get
> benefits which another caste does not want.
>
> Rgds, Partha
> ...........................................
>
> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 3:00 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
>
> > With lots of love, Inder saheb,
> >
> > let me assure you that we hindus have understood clearly that
> castes are
> > vocation based and not birth based, we have understood clearly
> now that we
> > as hindus have to be united not for fight against other faiths,
> but strong
> > society to counter others aggression. For we have seen now, what
> happens to
> > muslimsociety, when they fight with each other as nations of
> sunni and shia
> > denominations like Iran and Iraq. We have understood that mere
> two percent
> > selfish people who convert for material comfort can sell the
> nation to any
> > ation for kickbacks and settle down in Italy or America.
> >
> > All individuals have to be proud of their faith, united as
> community of
> > that faith, only strong communities can expect respect from
> others in
> > society. So, with lots love, Indersaheb, stop your game of dividing
> > kashmiris again on their caste and faith. kashmir is a state of
> India, those
> > who do not like the idea can go anywhere else of their choice
> like Rubeena
> > in saudi, or Mehbooba to hell. Heaven and hell are made by us by
> our actions
> > on this earth, Indersji, good thoughts, actions and deeds make
> this society
> > a worthy place to live, havenly, hate that is being spread with
> intellect is
> > dastardly, creating hell for all. So let us make this heavenly.
> >
> > Lot more love.Regards.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> > Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:45 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
> Pamphlet> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >
> > > Dear Kaul sahib,
> > >
> > > Now, about Buhur as you mentioned rightly. Their origin is not
> > > certain.Though Buhur's consider themselves to be the true specimen
> > > of Kashmiri
> > > Pandits belonging to Malmasi division. Pandit Anand Koul in "The
> > > KashmiriPandit" calls them by the name of Lejbhatta.
> > >
> > > the above para is from your own response. This is what
> Hitler too
> > > might have said about non-Aryan race in Germany.
> > >
> > > " their origin is not certain, they belong to this division or
> > > that "
> > > Watch your observation. What do you mean by true specimen,
> it is
> > > very sad that you dont consider Buhur as a true kashmiri
> pandits. "
> > > MalMasi" perhaps it means outsiders in comparison to '
> Banmasi' who
> > > are indigenous. And, here interstingly, outsiders mean those
> hindus> > who have come to kashmir from India. That means you
> consider Hindus
> > > from India inferior to Kashmiri Pandits. Is it so ?
> > >
> > > again Pandit Anand Kaul ( KAUL ) writes, as you quote him that
> these> > are LejBhattas. ( those who cook in earthenwares, or
> those who
> > > returned back to Pandit fold after a brief conversion to
> Islam )
> > > Sad. That you still beleive LejBhatta, which is almost a
> slang .
> > >
> > > You must know why Buhurs used their surnames as TICKOO. You
> must know
> > > that the surnames in kashmir play a vital role, as in any other
> > > society. Kashmiri pandits in general dont approve a marraige
> between> > Buhurs and Kauls,etc.
> > >
> > > Surprising, those pandits who perform religous rituals (
> > > Bhahmins )
> > > are also considered LOW in comparison to Kauls etc. there
> again no
> > > marriages happen between Kauls and them.
> > >
> > >
> > > One should not be ashamed of what has happened in the past,
> but one
> > > should restore human dignity of the other.... it begins with self
> > > introspection, which is thought...
> > >
> > > so think, why you dont want to to speak about these fact as
> they are.
> > > you will feel free, just have some courage.
> > >
> > > again, those Kashmiri muslims who clean toilets and repair
> shoes have
> > > their own shrines and mosques in their vicinity where they live.
> > > so for examples, again there are no inter-marriages happening
> between> > them and the rest....
> > >
> > > Dont we had a Buhur mohalla in Bijbehara, in srinagar as
> well...> > yes, they dont have sepearate shrines and deities, and
> they consider
> > > themselves as Kashmiri Pandits, but you dont, Pity
> > >
> > > love
> > > is
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> > > <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Shri Inder Salim,
> > > >
> > > > The courage with which you spread mis-information astonishes me;
> > > but we have
> > > > always had such people who want to malign their own community,
> > > sometimes for
> > > > pleasure and at times without even a reason to such
> unfortunate rare
> > > > behaviour. Maybe, Psychologists would help you find a one time
> > > solution to
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > I'm no master in history; not even on Kashmir; but I sure have
> > > some basic
> > > > knowledge from my family, elders and even a few books that I've
> > > read; that I
> > > > can share with you; to gets your facts right. I'm happy that
> > > there still
> > > > exist historical texts which can guide you to truth. Kindly
> > > forget your
> > > > appeasement state of mind; when you study history especially on
> > > Kashmir.>
> > > > Since, you started this debate by raising the issue of
> surnames and
> > > > allegedly claimed that there have been discriminatory mindset
> > > attached to
> > > > it, let me begin helping you understand your own surname.
> > > >
> > > > 'TIKOO' - It is said to have originated from the 'Trika'. The
> > > members of
> > > > this family were special devotees of the godess 'Tripura'. Fauq
> > > has given
> > > > one more explanation stating that an ancestor of this family
> > > adopted a
> > > > non-Brahman boy who was deemed to have become a Brahman by a
> > > Tika (a sacred
> > > > mark on the forehead of a Brahman). He and his descendants were
> > > later> nicknamed as Tiku.
> > > > The use of surnames in ancient Kashmir is negligible, present
> > > Kashmiri> surnames, have more or less evolved during the Muslim
> > > and Sikh rule. It is
> > > > stated that almost all the Kashmiri Pandits were Kaul's and they
> > > were later
> > > > on subdivided according to different nicknames and with the
> > > passage of time,
> > > > these nicknames became permanent surnames. There seems to be
> > > some truth in
> > > > this statement primarily because all the Kashmiri Pandits are
> > > Shaivites and
> > > > Mahakoul is one of the names of Lord Shiva, and secondly because
> > > the number
> > > > of nicknames even now attached with the surname Kaul is largest
> > > of all.
> > > >
> > > > Prof. R.K. Kaul in his book "Sociology of Names and
> Nicknames of
> > > India" with
> > > > special reference to Kashmir, that, "Moreover, in recent years
> > > the use of
> > > > nicknames is being progressively discarded and the surname Koul
> > > is being
> > > > adopted more than any other surname by almost all such people.
> > > >
> > > > Now, about Buhur as you mentioned rightly. Their origin is not
> > > certain.> Though Buhur's consider themselves to be the true
> > > specimen of Kashmiri
> > > > Pandits belonging to Malmasi division. Pandit Anand Koul in "The
> > > Kashmiri> Pandit" calls them by the name of Lejbhatta.
> > > >
> > > > And, Let me clarify that I've all respect for you as a Kashmiri
> > > and as well
> > > > as an elder; but I said "Laanath" and still stand with it firmly
> > > because you
> > > > always try to ignore history, truth and have been always
> > > ignorant of your
> > > > surname. Also, your e-mail reflects your unfortunate thinking,
> > > which is
> > > > actually disastrous.
> > > >
> > > > Again, your claim about Hari Parbat; is truely based on
> > > falsehood. You
> > > > yourself are from Trika; the originator; how can you even speak
> > > of such
> > > > discrimination. Stop making fun of yourself atleast.
> > > >
> > > > I'm and will always remain a proud Kashmiri Pandit. And, for you
> > > I only have
> > > > sympathies. I never asked you about your observations on me. You
> > > may kindly
> > > > keep those words with you. I would be happy if you utilise that
> > > time in
> > > > reading history and framing the right opinion and not spread
> > > unwanted> hatred. There was and will remain no discrimination
> > > among Kashmiri Pandits
> > > >
> > > > Kashmiri Pandits have always been peace loving and have educated
> > > the world;
> > > > don't degrade our community by such petty things.
> > > >
> > > > Hope you ponder over a bit about the above and read history;
> > > instead of
> > > > going along with the wind of rumours.
> > > >
> > > > Love
> > > > Aditya Raj Kaul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 9/24/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Dear Mr. Kaul sahib
> > > >> it takes some courage to speak the truth.
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. what about Boohir, are they kashmiri pandits or not ? are
> > > they equal ?
> > > >>
> > > >> 2 are marriages taking place between upper ( caste ) Kashmri
> > > Pandits>> and those kashmiri pandits who are either KANDOOR
> > > (Bakers) or SICHT
> > > >> (tailors)?
> > > >>
> > > >> 3 it is a true that Tickoos used to sit behind Dhars and
> > > Kauls at
> > > >> Hari parbhat. may be you dont know, so confirm .
> > > >>
> > > >> Besides that have you ever witnessed a kashmiri pandit
> cleaning a
> > > >> street, cleaning toilets, repairing shoes. Why are they
> all from
> > > >> muslims cpmmunity?
> > > >>
> > > >> How do you think that these jobs should be reserved only for
> > > Muslims>> in kashmir. You are a proud kashmiri pandit, right,
> > > but what about
> > > >> these facts, have guts to answer.
> > > >>
> > > >> yes, when you say ' lanath ' it actually means that you
> are an
> > > >> arrogant, a fit case to follow a parveen Tagodia type of
> > > politician,>> You have future ahead, which is unfortunate for
> > > cherished secular
> > > >> values of india. This is my observation about you after
> > > watching your
> > > >> reflections on the List.
> > > >>
> > > >> but i consider you still my younger brother, so i wont say
> > > 'lanth' to
> > > >> you, to none.
> > > >>
> > =3E >> love
> > > >> is
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> > > >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > Inder Salim,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > You forgot that the Kashmiri Pandit community is 100% litter
> > > ate, so stop
> > > >> > talking like illiterates. There is no cast ism in Kashmiri
> > > Pandits.>> >
> > > >> > You should be ashamed of yourself Inder. You don't even use
> > > Tickoo.>> > "Aath che wanan laanath". Stop spreading
> disinformation.> > >> >
> > > >> > Readers here know clearly; who has political ambitions
> and is
> > > trying to
> > > >> > appease a particular community.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Inder always has a problem with a Hindu.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > God Be with you.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On 9/24/08, chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> wrote:> > >> >>
> > > >> >> You ended the mail with the word 'love' and hence I would
> > > love to take
> > > >> this
> > > >> >> discussion ahead...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Let me put in blunt way:
> > > >> >> Birth of Jesus is under doubt, as Dead Sea Scrolls have
> revealed> > >> existence
> > > >> >> of old testament much before Jesus. The time mentioned for
> > > Jesus birth
> > > >> >> actually takes him in B.C... And moreover, the Kul Devta of
> > > Greece even
> > > >> >> today is 'Isus Chrisn' and not Jesus Christ.. What is meant
> > > by X-Mas...
> > > >> no
> > > >> >> body knows.. then, what is meant by October, November and
> > > December..>> meaning
> > > >> >> is not known.. but Oct is Eight (but October is 10th month),
> > > Nav is 9
> > > >> (but
> > > >> >> November is 11th month), Dec or Dus is 10th month (but
> > > December is 12th
> > > >> >> month)... but X denotes 10 and 'Mas' means month.. thus
> X-
> > > Mas is 10th
> > > >> Month
> > > >> >> that is December... and hence X-Mas is celebrated in
> > > December... Part of
> > > >> >> December nearly always lies in the 10th month of Hindu
> > > Calendar..>> >> Further.. what is meant by 'Isus' .. no one
> > > knows.. it is derived from
> > > >> >> Hindi word Ishwar... and Christ is reformed shape of
> Chrisn...> > >> >> As world has always produced good and bad
> minds, some Mr.
> > > Paul, who had
> > > >> >> himself shown huge cruelty, created this mischeif.. and
> > > maligned Chrisn
> > > >> Nity
> > > >> >> to Christianity....
> > > >> >> One should believe this, otherwise as I raised questions,
> > > all the words
> > > >> >> become meaningless... and with acceptance of this
> > > interpretation,>> everything
> > > >> >> suddenly becomes meaningful..
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Next came Muhammad.. there is no doubt on his birth and
> > > death... there
> > > >> is
> > > >> >> no controversy also.. But his life is also full of
> > > controversy... bad
> > > >> and
> > > >> >> good... Unfortunately what he and his followers prepared as
> > > texts for
> > > >> the
> > > >> >> world is creating instability for humanity... the whole
> > > world is now
> > > >> moving
> > > >> >> towards killing... Muslims kill.. Hindus retaliate and also
> > > kill... this
> > > >> has
> > > >> >> become the practice...
> > > >> >> Unfortunately Muslims do not know that they are also
> > > worshiping Idols at
> > > >> >> Qiblah... as there are hundreds of Idols broken down and
> > > hidden inside
> > > >>the
> > > >> >> black stone..
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> The difference is as simple as positive and negative -
> > > >> >> Muslims worship idols behind the wall, Hindus worship them
> > > before the
> > > >> wall
> > > >> >> Muslims worship wall like structure of stone, Hindus worship
> > > beautifully>> >> carved structure of stone
> > > >> >> Muslims want their Masjids to be blunt without beauty,
> > > HIndus want them
> > > >> to
> > > >> >> be beautifully decorated with creative carvings
> representing the
> > > >> creation of
> > > >> >> GOD. but both require this temple place..
> > > >> >> Muslims worship in the boundary of time anywhere, HIndus
> worship> > >> timelessly
> > > >> >> anytime their heart allows them at any place in any
> direction...> > >> >>
> > > >> >> My question is:
> > > >> >> If worship is the necessity, why is the world fighting
> on it
> > > then... Do
> > > >> >> Muslims and Christians want to say that Hindus do not
> > > worship.. If they
> > > >> do
> > > >> >> not - who is more peaceful and stable..
> > > >> >> Ah. .. again a discussion will start....
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Let this thread no more attack Hindus for their way of
> > > worship.... Let
> > > >> >> anyone who is talking secular must include Islam and
> > > Christianity also
> > > >> in
> > > >> >> their scope of attack...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> love
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----
> > > >> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> > > >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:32:23 AM
> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in
> > > "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Dear Chanchal,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> let us ignore, Aditya Raj Kaul, who has clear political
> > > ambition to
> > > >> >> talk so lowly regarding issues which are profound and funny
> > > at times.
> > > >> >> There are some Kauls who believe Tickoos are low caste in
> > > comparison>> >> to Dhars , Kauls or Razdans... which amuses me to
> > > no end. Let us not
> > > >> >> forget that caste system exists in Kashmiri Pandit
> > > community, on this
> > > >> >> pretext or that. You know perhaps, but he will himself come
> > > out and
> > > >> >> speak, just wait...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> But i am talking to you. For me it is always funny to
> talk about
> > > >> >> religion. Imagine, the first artist who visualized Ganesha.
> > > This is
> > > >> >> simple problem of proportion for an artist as and when
> > > she/he starts
> > > >> >> to drawi the figure on a surface. The moment you place an
> > > Elephant's>> >> Head on Human body, it looks disproportional and
> > > unaesthetic, so the
> > > >> >> pot belly. It amuses me, that how this figure becomes the
> > > most sacred
> > > >> >> composition, when there are thousand other surreal
> images in
> > > Hindu>> >> iconography, It is very normal for Hindu
> believers to
> > > see sexuality
> > > >> >> as part of their belief systems. How can we separate
> > > Krishan from his
> > > >> >> Gopis, how can remove surgically a Ligum from Yoni which
> > > represents>> >> Male and Female fertility...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> there are one million MF Hussains, much better than
> HUssains,> > >> >> already exiting in Hindu iconography, I dont
> see there is a
> > > need to
> > > >> >> compare that with Judo-Christian-Islamic iconography.
> That is
> > > >> >> entirely different. In Hinduism , discourse on sexuality can
> > > happen>> >> within the system of beleif, without guilt, which is
> > > not the case with
> > > >> >> the later. There has to a Freud, distinctly far away
> from a
> > > synagogue>> >> or a church to speak on sexuality and its
> > > relevance in society.
> > > >> >> Have not Arabs written about sexuality, or done research on
> > > chemicals>> >> and mathematics. Decorative art can come only from
> > > such a society.
> > > >> >> And i see amazing decorative art in Islamic iconography,
> > > which is not
> > > >> >> only sensual but highly aesthetic at the same time. And what
> > > about>> >> Sufis. Ghazal means to talk to a woman, which clearly
> > > indicates that
> > > >> >> there is an endless desire to talk about sexuality. And
> > > besides that
> > > >> >> there are most interesting paintings which have happened in
> > > different>> >> ages under different rulers. But if fanatics
> > > demolish them or burn
> > > >> >> them, it does not mean that nothing has happened, and
> > > nothing is
> > > >> >> happenning in islamic world .
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> All we need to is to strengthen the moderate voices within
> > > Islam, but
> > > >> >> if we keep on comparing this with that in a narrower sense,
> > > we will
> > > >> >> get nothing but 'hurt'
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Both the ends of world have come out with their own
> ways of
> > > living,>> >> and that is it.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Here, what surprises me is the fact that Hussain drawing
> were> > >> >> criticzed by Muslims Fundamentalist and Danish
> cartoon were
> > > equally>> >> criticized by Hindu right wingers.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> That is why we need to be careful to see what they both
> > > are doing.
> > > >> >> I know some Chruchs indulge in this kind of publication,
> > > to tease
> > > >> >> the Hindu mind, but if Hindus see it as a virtue in their
> > > system of
> > > >> >> of belief, the Hindu Religion, then it wont nurture hate
> > > in their
> > > >> >> hearts. But we listen to a Parveen Tagodia, a would be
> > > parveen ,
> > > >> >> here, named as Aditya Raj and even Bal Thakery , And in
> > > Mumbai where
> > > >> >> there was no one left to listen to their 'Bakwas', they
> > > began to drive
> > > >> >> North Indians our of Maharashtra.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> love
> > > >> >> is
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 8:48 AM, chanchal malviya
> > > >> >> <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> > Your metaphors are not objectionable Mr Inder... And
> > > Hindus will not
> > > >> get
> > > >> >> > angry if it is brought into discussion... Hindus get angry
> > > when these
> > > >> >> things
> > > >> >> > are highlighted against them and used to break them from
> > > their faith..
> > > >> >> > By the way one question: Why don't your metaphor include
> > > some stories
> > > >> of
> > > >> >> > Muhammad as well?
> > > >> >> > If you could do this, as we and the whole world already
> > > know many,
> > > >> your
> > > >> >> > metaphor would sound secular... else it appears that your
> > > metaphor>> again
> > > >> >> is
> > > >> >> > meant to pin-point any other Religion than Islam...
> > > >> >> > Please modify your metaphor and it would be a healthy
> > > discussion...>> >> >
> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----
> > > >> >> > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> > > >> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:14:25 PM
> > > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in
> "Satyadarshini"> > >> Pamphlet
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > thanks pawan ji for forwarding the pamphlet contents....
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > for me these are metaphors, only half educated person will
> > > take these
> > > >> >> > details of these characters as real. The illiterate and
> > > poor Hindus of
> > > >> >> > India are simple believers. People who know how to
> > > manipulate these
> > > >> >> > simple folks are concerned with their personal gains, just
> > > their axe
> > > >> >> > to grind.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Metaphors:- for example, Veda Vyasa of Mahabarata was
> > > grand father
> > > >> >> > of both warring factions of the final great war. The epic
> > > is such that
> > > >> >> > if we dont remember who is legitimate and who is
> > > illegitimate , the
> > > >> >> > war itself becomes meaningless. So, the moment we realize
> > > there is
> > > >> >> > nothing called legitimate or illegitimate we resolve the
> > > conflict,>> >> > which was fought fo good against bad.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Hindu epics are in fact full of such fantastic ways of
> > > coming to life.
> > > >> >> > Everybody knows. For example Ganesha was created by
> > > Paravati from the
> > > >> >> > dirt of her own body, even when Lord Shiva, her husband
> > > was not
> > > >> >> > around.. But this will never enrage the Hindu mind,
> > > because Parvati is
> > > >> >> > Shakti and she is fully equipped to bring anything to life
> > > on her own.
> > > >> >> > It is quite similar to Jesus coming to life from Mary
> > > surrounded by
> > > >> >> > domestic animals only, No fuss. But if someone will
> > > point out that
> > > >> >> > Rama's father was believer of polygamy, it might look
> > > offensive to
> > > >> >> > some of Hindus. It all depends who is saying and who is
> > > listening.>> >> >
> > > >> >> > A prostitute is a woman like any other respectable woman,
> > > like an
> > > >> >> > illegitimate child, who is as respectable as any other
> child.> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > I am conscious about the fact that you will demand to
> > > speak freely on
> > > >> >> > other religious characters as well, but that might be not
> > > be easy
> > > >> >> > because some of the believers blend history and faith too
> > > intensely.>> >> > I see no gain in that, but that becomes a
> > > dangerous zone to enter,
> > > >> >> > unless one has a deep creative urge to take the bull by
> > > horns. choice
> > > >> >> > is yours.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Efforts by some fanatic hindus to mix fantasy of the epics
> > > with>> >> > temporality will bear no fruits in the end. India has
> > > a deep
> > > >> >> > past...good to feel.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > with love
> > > >> >> > is
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
> > > >> >> > <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> >> I think it is not enough to merely condemn "both acts"
> > > and thus
> > > >> equate
> > > >> >> >> them.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> I think what is required is the rule of law - the writers
> > > of this
> > > >> >> >> pamphlet may be charged with the laws against spreading
> > > communal>> >> >> disharmony; indeed someone could have gone to
> > > court, arguing for a
> > > >> ban
> > > >> >> >> on the public distribution of such pamphlets. The
> writers and
> > > >> >> >> publishers could have defended the charge or pleaded
> > > guilty. The
> > > >> court
> > > >> >> >> could have decided the issue according to the law of the
> > > land laid
> > > >> >> >> down by the Constitution of India.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> Instead, the "offended" parties chose to take the law in
> > > their own
> > > >> >> >> hands, and deserve to be tried in a court of law
> > > irrespective of what
> > > >> >> >> the provocation was. Whether or not you and I condemn
> > > either or both
> > > >> >> >> acts is irrelevant. It is important that the law take its
> > > own course,
> > > >> >> >> be allowed to take its own course, that those guilty of
> > > violating the
> > > >> >> >> law be brought to book. It is this process of justice
> > > delivery that
> > > >> we
> > > >> >> >> must all demand, not just mere issuance of condemnations.
> > > Bringing>> the
> > > >> >> >> guilty to book would also send out a message to all kinds
> > > of fanatics
> > > >> >> >> that India is not a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Sikh or
> > > Buddhist>> >> >> country. It is a democratic, secular republic.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> best
> > > >> >> >> shivam
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pawan Durani <
> > > >> pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> > > >> >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >> >>> The pamphlet which caused attacks on churches had the
> > > following>> >> contents.
> > > >> >> >>> Personally i condemn both what was written on the
> > > pamphlet as well
> > > >> as
> > > >> >> >>> attacks on the churches, as that is not what is the
> > > answer to a
> > > >> >> nonsense
> > > >> >> >>> in
> > > >> >> >>> a educated society.
> > > >> >> >>> However the people who incited this through
> distribution of
> > > >> pamphlets
> > > >> >> >>> need
> > > >> >> >>> to be condemned , for being the reason to cause all
> > > >> >> >>> this unpleasant situation
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************>>> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> Abuse No. 1: Urvashi – the daughter of Narayana– is a
> > > prostitute.>> >> >>> Vashitha
> > > >> >> >>> is the son of this prostitute. He in turn married
> his own
> > > >> >> Mother. Such
> > > >> >> >>> a
> > > >> >> >>> degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama.
> (page 48)
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> *buse no. 2: Wh**en Krishna himself is wallowing in
> > > darkness of
> > > >> hell,
> > > >> >> how
> > > >> >> >>> can he enlighten others? Since **Krishna** himself is
> > > a shady
> > > >> >> >>> character,
> > > >> >> >>> there is a need for us to liberate his misled
> > > followers. (page 50)*
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> Abuse no. 3: t was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita.
> > > Since Brahma,
> > > >> >> >>> Vishnu
> > > >> >> >>> and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a
> > > sin to
> > > >> consider
> > > >> >> >>> them
> > =3E >> >> >>> as Gods. (page 39)
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> Abuse No. 4: When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma,
> > > Vishnu and Shiva)
> > > >> >> are
> > > >> >> >>> consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate
> > > others. Their
> > > >> >> >>> projection
> > > >> >> >>> as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> buse No.5: Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he
> > > immediately did
> > > >> so.
> > > >> >> >>> How
> > > >> >> >>> can such a "evil brahma" be a Creator of this Universe?
> > > How is it
> > > >> >> >>> possible
> > > >> >> >>> for both the sinner and the entity which provoked the
> > > sin to be
> > > >> gods?
> > > >> >> >>> (page
> > > >> >> >>> 39)
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> *Abuse No. 6: God, please liberate the sinful people of
> > > **India**>> who
> > > >> >> are
> > > >> >> >>> worshipping False Gods that believe in the
> pleasures of
> > > illicit
> > > >> >> >>> 'Vyabichari' relationships. (Page 39).*
> > > >> >> >>> _________________________________________
> > > >> >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and
> the city.
> > > >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations
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> > > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe:
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> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >>> List archive:
> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-
> > > list/>>> >>
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> --
> > > >> >> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> > > >> >> >> _________________________________________
> > > >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the
> city.> > >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > > >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-
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> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > --
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > _________________________________________
> > > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the
> city.> > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-
> > > request at sarai.net with
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> > > >> >> > To unsubscribe:
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> > > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-
> list/>> > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> --
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> _________________________________________
> > > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
> > > with>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
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> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-
> list/>> > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> _________________________________________
> > > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
> > > with>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
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> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-
> list/>> > >> > _________________________________________
> > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-
> request at sarai.net with
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> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >>
> > > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > > >> _________________________________________
> > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-
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> > > > _________________________________________
> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net
> > > with subscribe in the subject header.
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > > _________________________________________
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> > > Critiques & Collaborations
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> >
> >
> > _________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Partha Dasgupta
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