[Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ?

[Pawan Durani]

Dear Shuddha,
I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote
something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] .


Lean to respect religion and faith.

Pawan

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:

> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who
> once killed a scholar called Shambuka
> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that
> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures,
> even with his mind.
>
> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for
> the crime of their curiosity?  No, I would not. I touch a lot of
> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings
> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya
> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays
> that way.
>
> best
>
> Shuddha
> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote:
>
> >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya
> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
> > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him
> > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was
> > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public
> > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media
> > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".."
> >
> > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just
> > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram.
> > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression  of
> > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman  is nothing
> > different from its newer versions of  "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes!
> >
> >  While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even  by the standards of
> > ancient monarchy  it is much more unacceptable to the standards of
> > human rights  of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity
> > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of
> > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the
> > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse
> > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing
> > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to
> > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but
> > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to  someone else,
> > skulking away from taking up the  moral  responsibility. The kind of
> > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to
> > deep trouble even otherwise.
> >
> > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories
> > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence
> > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence
> > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many
> > people call Brahmanism.  Whatever you call this, you are supporting
> > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills.
> > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe
> > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing.
> > Regards,
> > Venu
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi
> > <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >>     Venu;
> >>
> >>   Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic
> >> society
> >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is
> >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino
> >> bhavanthu,
> >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam.
> >>
> >>   While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated,
> >> denied
> >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is
> >> more on
> >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life
> >> encourages such in
> >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had
> >> the place
> >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have
> >> happened
> >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala.
> >> Shah Bano
> >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where
> >> livelihood was
> >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has
> >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which
> >> shoots
> >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not
> >> proclaim
> >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With
> >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way
> >> of life
> >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja
> >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern
> >> times even
> >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society
> >> treats the
> >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to
> >> come from
> >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in
> >> Dowry act,
> >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman
> >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and
> >> lavish dory
> >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with
> >> substantially
> >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was
> >> told to
> >> me by a bishop friend.
> >>
> >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of
> >> life, hindu is
> >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is
> >> hindu, as
> >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was
> >> kshatriya
> >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
> >> opinion.
> >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take
> >> the harsh
> >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the
> >> Ashram.
> >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they
> >> did , but
> >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their
> >> agendas, is my
> >> perception.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Rajen.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M
> >> <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Dear Rajen,
> >>>
> >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one
> >>> will stand
> >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you
> >>> were stating
> >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the
> >>> exceptionally
> >>> institutionalized and ritualized  hate in the social and cultural
> >>> life of
> >>> India.
> >>> This is sure to  raise lot of other questions: Why, for example
> >>> after the
> >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire
> >>> people of a
> >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping,
> >>> (women),killing and
> >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a
> >>> dalit family
> >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about
> >>> one month?
> >>> So , an understanding of  Brahmanism together with  Brahmanical
> >>> ways of
> >>> thinking,  not only does not talk of  Brahmans as persons but
> >>> more as a
> >>> collective and  typically  negative attitude. It is characterized by
> >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste
> >>> and
> >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are
> >>> automatically
> >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen
> >>> in every
> >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not
> >>> giving birth
> >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc
> >>> are viewed
> >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely
> >>> negative
> >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to
> >>> protect the
> >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are
> >>> generally what
> >>> are considered as traits associated with
> >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority
> >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted
> >>> to it;
> >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been
> >>> taught to them
> >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey  without
> >>> grumbles and
> >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam
> >>> guna karma
> >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your
> >>> past karma
> >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is
> >>> the
> >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it
> >>> correctly)
> >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu
> >>> scriptures and
> >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of
> >>> dalits as
> >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to
> >>> cover up
> >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the
> >>> upper caste
> >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant
> >>> factors
> >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of
> >>> Gita and
> >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of
> >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own
> >>> notion..so are
> >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses  to a greater or lesser
> >>> degree in
> >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of
> >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to
> >>> resist
> >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority.
> >>> Certainly,
> >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant
> >>> role  in
> >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet
> >>> and the
> >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to
> >>> challenge this
> >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in  significant ways.
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Venu.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Venu.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi
> >>> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>>     Venu,
> >>>>
> >>>>     List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all
> >>>> with
> >>>> undertones of "caste"  and is casted with caste as theme of
> >>>> hate, if one
> >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical
> >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if
> >>>> otherwise it
> >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable   "caste",
> >>>> then may be
> >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above
> >>>> the caste and
> >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you
> >>>> start with
> >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.?
> >>>>
> >>>>   To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who
> >>>> takes up
> >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with
> >>>> the issues,
> >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra,
> >>>> Gayathri, is
> >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are
> >>>> also are
> >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but
> >>>> behaviour is that
> >>>> of worse than  anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his
> >>>> acts and
> >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr.
> >>>> Joshi, who
> >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind
> >>>> such rituals,
> >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give
> >>>> the right to
> >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that
> >>>> once the
> >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed
> >>>> to go for
> >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days,
> >>>> hazardous, it
> >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey
> >>>> for
> >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at
> >>>> hop, skip
> >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.?
> >>>>
> >>>>   As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in
> >>>> Karnataka
> >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so
> >>>> the education
> >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation,
> >>>> judge the
> >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by
> >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is
> >>>> not what
> >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in
> >>>> this age of
> >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and
> >>>> their behaviour
> >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media,
> >>>> where anchors
> >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.?
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Rajen.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/
> > _________________________________________
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>
> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> Raqs Media Collective
> shuddha at sarai.net
> www.sarai.net
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>
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