[Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ?

Pawan Durani pawan.durani at gmail.com
Thu Apr 23 21:16:29 IST 2009 

IInder,
My question has still been left unanswered. Let me repeat it again ...

" Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something from Holy
Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] .

Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you had wet pants.

Pawan


On 4/23/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who
> was not a favourite with the ruling elite of  Dashratha's Kingdom,
> but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the
> palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives
> of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile
> in the forests.  How come,  the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet
> himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such
> a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love.  I
> believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself, and
> that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great valmiki,
> the untouchable...
>
> Shamuka , say,  imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet
> himself,  who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet
> has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a
> character,
>
> See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why
> there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other
> village girls.
>
> so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of
> humor and reasoning intact.
>
> with love and regards
> inder salim
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Dear Shuddha,
> > I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote
> > something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] .
> >
> >
> > Lean to respect religion and faith.
> >
> > Pawan
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <
> shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:
> >
> >> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who
> >> once killed a scholar called Shambuka
> >> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that
> >> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures,
> >> even with his mind.
> >>
> >> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for
> >> the crime of their curiosity?  No, I would not. I touch a lot of
> >> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings
> >> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya
> >> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays
> >> that way.
> >>
> >> best
> >>
> >> Shuddha
> >> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote:
> >>
> >> >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya
> >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
> >> > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him
> >> > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was
> >> > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public
> >> > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media
> >> > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".."
> >> >
> >> > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just
> >> > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram.
> >> > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression  of
> >> > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman  is nothing
> >> > different from its newer versions of  "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes!
> >> >
> >> >  While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even  by the standards of
> >> > ancient monarchy  it is much more unacceptable to the standards of
> >> > human rights  of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity
> >> > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of
> >> > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the
> >> > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse
> >> > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing
> >> > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to
> >> > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but
> >> > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to  someone else,
> >> > skulking away from taking up the  moral  responsibility. The kind of
> >> > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to
> >> > deep trouble even otherwise.
> >> >
> >> > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories
> >> > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence
> >> > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence
> >> > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many
> >> > people call Brahmanism.  Whatever you call this, you are supporting
> >> > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills.
> >> > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe
> >> > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing.
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Venu
> >> > .
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi
> >> > <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>
> >> >>     Venu;
> >> >>
> >> >>   Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic
> >> >> society
> >> >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is
> >> >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino
> >> >> bhavanthu,
> >> >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam.
> >> >>
> >> >>   While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated,
> >> >> denied
> >> >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is
> >> >> more on
> >> >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life
> >> >> encourages such in
> >> >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had
> >> >> the place
> >> >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have
> >> >> happened
> >> >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala.
> >> >> Shah Bano
> >> >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where
> >> >> livelihood was
> >> >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has
> >> >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which
> >> >> shoots
> >> >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not
> >> >> proclaim
> >> >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With
> >> >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way
> >> >> of life
> >> >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja
> >> >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern
> >> >> times even
> >> >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society
> >> >> treats the
> >> >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to
> >> >> come from
> >> >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in
> >> >> Dowry act,
> >> >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman
> >> >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and
> >> >> lavish dory
> >> >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with
> >> >> substantially
> >> >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was
> >> >> told to
> >> >> me by a bishop friend.
> >> >>
> >> >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of
> >> >> life, hindu is
> >> >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is
> >> >> hindu, as
> >> >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was
> >> >> kshatriya
> >> >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
> >> >> opinion.
> >> >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take
> >> >> the harsh
> >> >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the
> >> >> Ashram.
> >> >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they
> >> >> did , but
> >> >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their
> >> >> agendas, is my
> >> >> perception.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >> Rajen.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M
> >> >> <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Dear Rajen,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one
> >> >>> will stand
> >> >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you
> >> >>> were stating
> >> >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the
> >> >>> exceptionally
> >> >>> institutionalized and ritualized  hate in the social and cultural
> >> >>> life of
> >> >>> India.
> >> >>> This is sure to  raise lot of other questions: Why, for example
> >> >>> after the
> >> >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire
> >> >>> people of a
> >> >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping,
> >> >>> (women),killing and
> >> >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a
> >> >>> dalit family
> >> >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about
> >> >>> one month?
> >> >>> So , an understanding of  Brahmanism together with  Brahmanical
> >> >>> ways of
> >> >>> thinking,  not only does not talk of  Brahmans as persons but
> >> >>> more as a
> >> >>> collective and  typically  negative attitude. It is characterized by
> >> >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste
> >> >>> and
> >> >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are
> >> >>> automatically
> >> >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen
> >> >>> in every
> >> >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not
> >> >>> giving birth
> >> >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc
> >> >>> are viewed
> >> >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely
> >> >>> negative
> >> >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to
> >> >>> protect the
> >> >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are
> >> >>> generally what
> >> >>> are considered as traits associated with
> >> >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority
> >> >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted
> >> >>> to it;
> >> >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been
> >> >>> taught to them
> >> >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey  without
> >> >>> grumbles and
> >> >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam
> >> >>> guna karma
> >> >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your
> >> >>> past karma
> >> >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it
> >> >>> correctly)
> >> >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu
> >> >>> scriptures and
> >> >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of
> >> >>> dalits as
> >> >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to
> >> >>> cover up
> >> >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the
> >> >>> upper caste
> >> >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant
> >> >>> factors
> >> >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of
> >> >>> Gita and
> >> >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of
> >> >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own
> >> >>> notion..so are
> >> >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses  to a greater or lesser
> >> >>> degree in
> >> >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of
> >> >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to
> >> >>> resist
> >> >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority.
> >> >>> Certainly,
> >> >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant
> >> >>> role  in
> >> >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet
> >> >>> and the
> >> >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to
> >> >>> challenge this
> >> >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in  significant ways.
> >> >>> Regards,
> >> >>> Venu.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Regards,
> >> >>> Venu.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi
> >> >>> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>     Venu,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>     List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all
> >> >>>> with
> >> >>>> undertones of "caste"  and is casted with caste as theme of
> >> >>>> hate, if one
> >> >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical
> >> >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if
> >> >>>> otherwise it
> >> >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable   "caste",
> >> >>>> then may be
> >> >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above
> >> >>>> the caste and
> >> >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you
> >> >>>> start with
> >> >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>   To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who
> >> >>>> takes up
> >> >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with
> >> >>>> the issues,
> >> >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra,
> >> >>>> Gayathri, is
> >> >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are
> >> >>>> also are
> >> >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but
> >> >>>> behaviour is that
> >> >>>> of worse than  anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his
> >> >>>> acts and
> >> >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr.
> >> >>>> Joshi, who
> >> >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind
> >> >>>> such rituals,
> >> >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give
> >> >>>> the right to
> >> >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that
> >> >>>> once the
> >> >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed
> >> >>>> to go for
> >> >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days,
> >> >>>> hazardous, it
> >> >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey
> >> >>>> for
> >> >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at
> >> >>>> hop, skip
> >> >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>   As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in
> >> >>>> Karnataka
> >> >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so
> >> >>>> the education
> >> >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation,
> >> >>>> judge the
> >> >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by
> >> >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is
> >> >>>> not what
> >> >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in
> >> >>>> this age of
> >> >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and
> >> >>>> their behaviour
> >> >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media,
> >> >>>> where anchors
> >> >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Regards,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Rajen.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/
> >> > _________________________________________
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> >>
> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> >> Raqs Media Collective
> >> shuddha at sarai.net
> >> www.sarai.net
> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _________________________________________
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> >> Critiques & Collaborations
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> >>
> > _________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>
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