[Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ?

A Khanna A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk
Thu Apr 23 21:49:27 IST 2009 

dear all,
apologies if this link has already been posted on this list...but in  
the context of all this talk of Ram Rajya and all...

http://www.thirteen.org/sites/reel13/blog/watch-sita-sings-the-blues-online/347/

enjoy

akshay
Quoting Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>:

> IInder,
> My question has still been left unanswered. Let me repeat it again ...
>
> " Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something from Holy
> Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] .
>
> Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you had wet pants.
>
> Pawan
>
>
> On 4/23/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who
>> was not a favourite with the ruling elite of  Dashratha's Kingdom,
>> but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the
>> palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives
>> of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile
>> in the forests.  How come,  the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet
>> himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such
>> a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love.  I
>> believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself, and
>> that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great valmiki,
>> the untouchable...
>>
>> Shamuka , say,  imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet
>> himself,  who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet
>> has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a
>> character,
>>
>> See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why
>> there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other
>> village girls.
>>
>> so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of
>> humor and reasoning intact.
>>
>> with love and regards
>> inder salim
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Dear Shuddha,
>> > I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote
>> > something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] .
>> >
>> >
>> > Lean to respect religion and faith.
>> >
>> > Pawan
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <
>> shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who
>> >> once killed a scholar called Shambuka
>> >> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that
>> >> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures,
>> >> even with his mind.
>> >>
>> >> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for
>> >> the crime of their curiosity?  No, I would not. I touch a lot of
>> >> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings
>> >> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya
>> >> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays
>> >> that way.
>> >>
>> >> best
>> >>
>> >> Shuddha
>> >> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya
>> >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
>> >> > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him
>> >> > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was
>> >> > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public
>> >> > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media
>> >> > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".."
>> >> >
>> >> > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just
>> >> > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram.
>> >> > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression  of
>> >> > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman  is nothing
>> >> > different from its newer versions of  "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes!
>> >> >
>> >> >  While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even  by the standards of
>> >> > ancient monarchy  it is much more unacceptable to the standards of
>> >> > human rights  of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity
>> >> > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of
>> >> > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the
>> >> > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse
>> >> > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing
>> >> > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to
>> >> > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but
>> >> > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to  someone else,
>> >> > skulking away from taking up the  moral  responsibility. The kind of
>> >> > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to
>> >> > deep trouble even otherwise.
>> >> >
>> >> > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories
>> >> > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence
>> >> > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence
>> >> > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many
>> >> > people call Brahmanism.  Whatever you call this, you are supporting
>> >> > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills.
>> >> > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe
>> >> > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing.
>> >> > Regards,
>> >> > Venu
>> >> > .
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi
>> >> > <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>     Venu;
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic
>> >> >> society
>> >> >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is
>> >> >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino
>> >> >> bhavanthu,
>> >> >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated,
>> >> >> denied
>> >> >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is
>> >> >> more on
>> >> >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life
>> >> >> encourages such in
>> >> >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had
>> >> >> the place
>> >> >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have
>> >> >> happened
>> >> >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala.
>> >> >> Shah Bano
>> >> >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where
>> >> >> livelihood was
>> >> >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has
>> >> >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which
>> >> >> shoots
>> >> >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not
>> >> >> proclaim
>> >> >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With
>> >> >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way
>> >> >> of life
>> >> >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja
>> >> >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern
>> >> >> times even
>> >> >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society
>> >> >> treats the
>> >> >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to
>> >> >> come from
>> >> >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in
>> >> >> Dowry act,
>> >> >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman
>> >> >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and
>> >> >> lavish dory
>> >> >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with
>> >> >> substantially
>> >> >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was
>> >> >> told to
>> >> >> me by a bishop friend.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of
>> >> >> life, hindu is
>> >> >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is
>> >> >> hindu, as
>> >> >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was
>> >> >> kshatriya
>> >> >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
>> >> >> opinion.
>> >> >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take
>> >> >> the harsh
>> >> >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the
>> >> >> Ashram.
>> >> >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they
>> >> >> did , but
>> >> >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their
>> >> >> agendas, is my
>> >> >> perception.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Regards,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Rajen.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M
>> >> >> <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Dear Rajen,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one
>> >> >>> will stand
>> >> >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you
>> >> >>> were stating
>> >> >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the
>> >> >>> exceptionally
>> >> >>> institutionalized and ritualized  hate in the social and cultural
>> >> >>> life of
>> >> >>> India.
>> >> >>> This is sure to  raise lot of other questions: Why, for example
>> >> >>> after the
>> >> >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire
>> >> >>> people of a
>> >> >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping,
>> >> >>> (women),killing and
>> >> >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a
>> >> >>> dalit family
>> >> >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about
>> >> >>> one month?
>> >> >>> So , an understanding of  Brahmanism together with  Brahmanical
>> >> >>> ways of
>> >> >>> thinking,  not only does not talk of  Brahmans as persons but
>> >> >>> more as a
>> >> >>> collective and  typically  negative attitude. It is characterized by
>> >> >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste
>> >> >>> and
>> >> >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are
>> >> >>> automatically
>> >> >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen
>> >> >>> in every
>> >> >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not
>> >> >>> giving birth
>> >> >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc
>> >> >>> are viewed
>> >> >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely
>> >> >>> negative
>> >> >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to
>> >> >>> protect the
>> >> >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are
>> >> >>> generally what
>> >> >>> are considered as traits associated with
>> >> >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority
>> >> >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted
>> >> >>> to it;
>> >> >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been
>> >> >>> taught to them
>> >> >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey  without
>> >> >>> grumbles and
>> >> >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam
>> >> >>> guna karma
>> >> >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your
>> >> >>> past karma
>> >> >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it
>> >> >>> correctly)
>> >> >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu
>> >> >>> scriptures and
>> >> >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of
>> >> >>> dalits as
>> >> >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to
>> >> >>> cover up
>> >> >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the
>> >> >>> upper caste
>> >> >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant
>> >> >>> factors
>> >> >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of
>> >> >>> Gita and
>> >> >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of
>> >> >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own
>> >> >>> notion..so are
>> >> >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses  to a greater or lesser
>> >> >>> degree in
>> >> >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of
>> >> >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to
>> >> >>> resist
>> >> >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority.
>> >> >>> Certainly,
>> >> >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant
>> >> >>> role  in
>> >> >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet
>> >> >>> and the
>> >> >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to
>> >> >>> challenge this
>> >> >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in  significant ways.
>> >> >>> Regards,
>> >> >>> Venu.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Regards,
>> >> >>> Venu.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi
>> >> >>> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Hi,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>     Venu,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>     List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all
>> >> >>>> with
>> >> >>>> undertones of "caste"  and is casted with caste as theme of
>> >> >>>> hate, if one
>> >> >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical
>> >> >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if
>> >> >>>> otherwise it
>> >> >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable   "caste",
>> >> >>>> then may be
>> >> >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above
>> >> >>>> the caste and
>> >> >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you
>> >> >>>> start with
>> >> >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>   To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who
>> >> >>>> takes up
>> >> >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with
>> >> >>>> the issues,
>> >> >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra,
>> >> >>>> Gayathri, is
>> >> >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are
>> >> >>>> also are
>> >> >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but
>> >> >>>> behaviour is that
>> >> >>>> of worse than  anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his
>> >> >>>> acts and
>> >> >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr.
>> >> >>>> Joshi, who
>> >> >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind
>> >> >>>> such rituals,
>> >> >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give
>> >> >>>> the right to
>> >> >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that
>> >> >>>> once the
>> >> >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed
>> >> >>>> to go for
>> >> >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days,
>> >> >>>> hazardous, it
>> >> >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey
>> >> >>>> for
>> >> >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at
>> >> >>>> hop, skip
>> >> >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>   As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in
>> >> >>>> Karnataka
>> >> >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so
>> >> >>>> the education
>> >> >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation,
>> >> >>>> judge the
>> >> >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by
>> >> >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is
>> >> >>>> not what
>> >> >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in
>> >> >>>> this age of
>> >> >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and
>> >> >>>> their behaviour
>> >> >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media,
>> >> >>>> where anchors
>> >> >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Regards,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Rajen.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/
>> >> > _________________________________________
>> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
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>> >>
>> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>> >> Raqs Media Collective
>> >> shuddha at sarai.net
>> >> www.sarai.net
>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _________________________________________
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>> >>
>> > _________________________________________
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>> > Critiques & Collaborations
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>>
>> _________________________________________
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