[Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ?

[Inder Salim]

the Reality has no magic in it, it never had.
human beings think of utopias, or believe there were once, such as
Rama Rajas, but  it is again psychology, here, i guess our poetic
outbursts do occur because of that inner urge to celebrate our
existences, and overcome our limitations.

 but the reality has been always bitter, always against the grain,
always hemorrhaging the ethical and moral

how we are content if we see others humiliated.  Dont we say Ram Ram,
i believe there are many types of Ramas
but if you want to believe only in one which is  as imagined by
Valmiki, then our reality is just manufactured by drama, by theatre,
and nothing more.  We need some unmasking.

 Beleive me there are thousands of Ramas, and other sounds which dont
sound Rama too mean the same.
 and all are not divine. most of them are earthy

About the times of Mohammad there is never any mention of any Rama
Rajya like  research, That squarely means the times were full  of
strife and struggle.  There were wars between clans and kingdoms. and
obviously there must have been innocent killings. what is surprising
about it,

what i actually want to get out of these reflection to your desire to
know is that there is a present, and let us think about what we are,
what a true believer of Rama would be like, it must be thumak thumak
chalat Ram Chander, ( how gracefully, dancingly Rama moves )

do we need to spread love or hate. come on yaar, it is just  very
simple, just love the other, and you will be loved, there is no other
way, my dear brother,
choice is yours, but remember, your choice can affect the other too,

i was talking to myself even
with love and regards
is






. Let me repeat it again ...
>
> " Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something from Holy
> Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] .
>
> Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you had wet pants.
>
> Pawan
>
>
> On 4/23/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who
>> was not a favourite with the ruling elite of  Dashratha's Kingdom,
>> but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the
>> palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives
>> of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile
>> in the forests.  How come,  the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet
>> himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such
>> a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love.  I
>> believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself, and
>> that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great valmiki,
>> the untouchable...
>>
>> Shamuka , say,  imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet
>> himself,  who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet
>> has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a
>> character,
>>
>> See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why
>> there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other
>> village girls.
>>
>> so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of
>> humor and reasoning intact.
>>
>> with love and regards
>> inder salim
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Dear Shuddha,
>> > I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote
>> > something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] .
>> >
>> >
>> > Lean to respect religion and faith.
>> >
>> > Pawan
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>> > <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who
>> >> once killed a scholar called Shambuka
>> >> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that
>> >> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures,
>> >> even with his mind.
>> >>
>> >> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for
>> >> the crime of their curiosity?  No, I would not. I touch a lot of
>> >> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings
>> >> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya
>> >> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays
>> >> that way.
>> >>
>> >> best
>> >>
>> >> Shuddha
>> >> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya
>> >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
>> >> > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made
>> >> > him
>> >> > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was
>> >> > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public
>> >> > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media
>> >> > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".."
>> >> >
>> >> > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just
>> >> > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram.
>> >> > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression  of
>> >> > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman  is nothing
>> >> > different from its newer versions of  "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes!
>> >> >
>> >> >  While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even  by the standards of
>> >> > ancient monarchy  it is much more unacceptable to the standards of
>> >> > human rights  of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity
>> >> > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of
>> >> > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the
>> >> > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take
>> >> > recourse
>> >> > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing
>> >> > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to
>> >> > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but
>> >> > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to  someone else,
>> >> > skulking away from taking up the  moral  responsibility. The kind of
>> >> > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to
>> >> > deep trouble even otherwise.
>> >> >
>> >> > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories
>> >> > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence
>> >> > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence
>> >> > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what
>> >> > many
>> >> > people call Brahmanism.  Whatever you call this, you are supporting
>> >> > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our
>> >> > ills.
>> >> > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe
>> >> > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing.
>> >> > Regards,
>> >> > Venu
>> >> > .
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi
>> >> > <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>     Venu;
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic
>> >> >> society
>> >> >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino
>> >> >> bhavanthu,
>> >> >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated,
>> >> >> denied
>> >> >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is
>> >> >> more on
>> >> >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life
>> >> >> encourages such in
>> >> >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had
>> >> >> the place
>> >> >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have
>> >> >> happened
>> >> >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala.
>> >> >> Shah Bano
>> >> >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where
>> >> >> livelihood was
>> >> >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has
>> >> >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which
>> >> >> shoots
>> >> >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not
>> >> >> proclaim
>> >> >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With
>> >> >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way
>> >> >> of life
>> >> >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like
>> >> >> Raja
>> >> >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern
>> >> >> times even
>> >> >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society
>> >> >> treats the
>> >> >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to
>> >> >> come from
>> >> >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in
>> >> >> Dowry act,
>> >> >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman
>> >> >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and
>> >> >> lavish dory
>> >> >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with
>> >> >> substantially
>> >> >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was
>> >> >> told to
>> >> >> me by a bishop friend.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of
>> >> >> life, hindu is
>> >> >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is
>> >> >> hindu, as
>> >> >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was
>> >> >> kshatriya
>> >> >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
>> >> >> opinion.
>> >> >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take
>> >> >> the harsh
>> >> >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the
>> >> >> Ashram.
>> >> >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they
>> >> >> did , but
>> >> >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their
>> >> >> agendas, is my
>> >> >> perception.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Regards,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Rajen.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M
>> >> >> <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Dear Rajen,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one
>> >> >>> will stand
>> >> >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you
>> >> >>> were stating
>> >> >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the
>> >> >>> exceptionally
>> >> >>> institutionalized and ritualized  hate in the social and cultural
>> >> >>> life of
>> >> >>> India.
>> >> >>> This is sure to  raise lot of other questions: Why, for example
>> >> >>> after the
>> >> >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire
>> >> >>> people of a
>> >> >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping,
>> >> >>> (women),killing and
>> >> >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a
>> >> >>> dalit family
>> >> >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about
>> >> >>> one month?
>> >> >>> So , an understanding of  Brahmanism together with  Brahmanical
>> >> >>> ways of
>> >> >>> thinking,  not only does not talk of  Brahmans as persons but
>> >> >>> more as a
>> >> >>> collective and  typically  negative attitude. It is characterized
>> >> >>> by
>> >> >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste
>> >> >>> and
>> >> >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are
>> >> >>> automatically
>> >> >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen
>> >> >>> in every
>> >> >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not
>> >> >>> giving birth
>> >> >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc
>> >> >>> are viewed
>> >> >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely
>> >> >>> negative
>> >> >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to
>> >> >>> protect the
>> >> >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are
>> >> >>> generally what
>> >> >>> are considered as traits associated with
>> >> >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority
>> >> >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted
>> >> >>> to it;
>> >> >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been
>> >> >>> taught to them
>> >> >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey  without
>> >> >>> grumbles and
>> >> >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam
>> >> >>> guna karma
>> >> >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your
>> >> >>> past karma
>> >> >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it
>> >> >>> correctly)
>> >> >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu
>> >> >>> scriptures and
>> >> >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of
>> >> >>> dalits as
>> >> >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to
>> >> >>> cover up
>> >> >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the
>> >> >>> upper caste
>> >> >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant
>> >> >>> factors
>> >> >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of
>> >> >>> Gita and
>> >> >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of
>> >> >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own
>> >> >>> notion..so are
>> >> >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses  to a greater or lesser
>> >> >>> degree in
>> >> >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of
>> >> >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to
>> >> >>> resist
>> >> >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority.
>> >> >>> Certainly,
>> >> >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant
>> >> >>> role  in
>> >> >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet
>> >> >>> and the
>> >> >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to
>> >> >>> challenge this
>> >> >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in  significant ways.
>> >> >>> Regards,
>> >> >>> Venu.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Regards,
>> >> >>> Venu.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi
>> >> >>> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Hi,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>     Venu,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>     List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all
>> >> >>>> with
>> >> >>>> undertones of "caste"  and is casted with caste as theme of
>> >> >>>> hate, if one
>> >> >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical
>> >> >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if
>> >> >>>> otherwise it
>> >> >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable   "caste",
>> >> >>>> then may be
>> >> >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above
>> >> >>>> the caste and
>> >> >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you
>> >> >>>> start with
>> >> >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>   To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who
>> >> >>>> takes up
>> >> >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with
>> >> >>>> the issues,
>> >> >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra,
>> >> >>>> Gayathri, is
>> >> >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are
>> >> >>>> also are
>> >> >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but
>> >> >>>> behaviour is that
>> >> >>>> of worse than  anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his
>> >> >>>> acts and
>> >> >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr.
>> >> >>>> Joshi, who
>> >> >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind
>> >> >>>> such rituals,
>> >> >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give
>> >> >>>> the right to
>> >> >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that
>> >> >>>> once the
>> >> >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed
>> >> >>>> to go for
>> >> >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days,
>> >> >>>> hazardous, it
>> >> >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey
>> >> >>>> for
>> >> >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at
>> >> >>>> hop, skip
>> >> >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>   As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in
>> >> >>>> Karnataka
>> >> >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so
>> >> >>>> the education
>> >> >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation,
>> >> >>>> judge the
>> >> >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by
>> >> >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is
>> >> >>>> not what
>> >> >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in
>> >> >>>> this age of
>> >> >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and
>> >> >>>> their behaviour
>> >> >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media,
>> >> >>>> where anchors
>> >> >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and
>> >> >>>> bodies.?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Regards,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Rajen.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/
>> >> > _________________________________________
>> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
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>> >>
>> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>> >> Raqs Media Collective
>> >> shuddha at sarai.net
>> >> www.sarai.net
>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _________________________________________
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>> >>
>> > _________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>>
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