[Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ?
Shuddhabrata Sengupta
shuddha at sarai.net
Fri Apr 24 04:36:14 IST 2009
Pawan,
Here is my attempt at a straightforward (even if slightly lengthy)
answer to your question.
The prophet known as Muhammad to his followers is reported (according
to the ahadith and seerat-bigoraphical accounts) to have condoned, if
not endorsed the assasination of at least seven satirical poets,
namely, Al Nadr bin al Harith, Uqba bin Abu Muayt, Asma bint Marwan,
Abu Afak, Kab bin al Ashraf, Ibn Sunayna, an anonymous Bedouin, a
singing girl belonging to Abdullah bin Katal.
These are cases that may be seen as being roughly comparable to the
murder of Shambuk for his act of speaking/ reading the vedas, at the
orders of the character called Rama. Both are narratives of acts of
violence consequent upon acts of reading/speaking something deemed
offensive. They may be seen as attacks on the freedom of speech, and
justly so.
Of these seven, reports of the murders of poets and performers,
reliable textual evidence (as in a hadith that is considered to be
reliable in terms of its isnad or transmission) can be found for
just one, that is for the murder of Kab bin al Ashraf. The others
have numerous problems of exegetical authenticity and verifiability,
so let us stick to what can be said with a certain degree of certainty.
Let us suppose that the man called Kab bin al-Ashraf was indeed
killed for his speech. If that is the case, I would have no
hesitation in saying that the conduct of Muhammad demonstrates
arrogance unbecoming (in this instance) of a prophet committed to a
vision of life based on peace and compassion. I would have no
hesitation in saying that exactly as in Rama's execution of Shambuka,
such an act would be, in my opinion, best described as - stupid,
arrogant and unwise.
However, before jumping to conclusions, let us remember that the
quran speaks in more than one voice with regard to contempt, and
about the efforts by satirical poets to ridicule the prophet with
their utterances. Allah explicitly commands Muhammad to be patient
towards those who speak ill of him. In verse 28 for instance, we hear
the following, and I quote : "When (the righteous) hear vain talk,
they withdraw from it saying: 'Our deeds are for us and yours for
you; peace be on to you. We do not desire the way of the
ignorant'. . .O Prophet (Muhammad), you cannot give guidance to whom
you wish, it is God Who gives guidance to whom He pleases, and He is
quite aware of those who are guided." (28:55-56)
Muslims are also taught the tradition of the woman who would
regularly throw trash on the prophet as he walked down a particular
path.The prophet never responded in kind to the woman's abuse.
Instead, when she one day failed to attack him, he went to her home
to inquire about her condition and good health.
So there are as many reliable accounts of Muhammad's forgiving nature
as there are of his vengeful, aggressive nature. A lot depends on
what you choose to believe.
I am not a believer, so I do not need to make this choice. I am just
as willing to say that if the stories about vengefulness are taken at
their face value, then the conduct of the prophet can best be
described as unbecoming and arrogant, just as arrogant and unwise or
stupid as Rama. If, on the other hand, the stories about compassion,
liberality and forgiveness are to be believed, then, the prophet can
be seen as an exemplar of how a person should deal with hostility.
Whatever be the case, I do not think that the lives and reputations
of interesting and exemplary men and women (and I would count
Muhammad as one such person, even though I am not a believer) are
diminished by the retention of our ability to be critical of them.
As far as I know, Muhammad is not worshipped in the Islamicate
tradition as a deity. He is neither god, nor the son of god. he is
merely god's messenger. His actions are shown to be that of a mortal,
(not divine) being. They are exemplary, but in the end, fallible,
even if he is seen and portrayed as the best of men. He doubts
himself, his followers are reported on occasion as disagreeing with
him. There is debate, disagreement, discussion and dialogue.
As far as I know, the Hindu traditions that encode the worship of
Rama the king of Ayodhya also deify him. In their eyes, he is god.
And god can do no wrong. Rama's occasional deviance from justice and
ethics (such as in the case of the slaying of Bali by deception) are
in fact pointed out as instances of divine exception, of the fact
that one cannot judge gods and men by the same ethical criteria.
God is not seen as capable of making mistakes and errors of
judgement. Otherwise he would not be divine. If Rama made mistakes he
could not be divine. If he is divine, he cannot make mistakes.
Since I am not a believer in his divinity. I am free to see that he
makes mistakes. If you are a believer in his divinity, then that
choice is not available to you.
And so, I can see that if Muhammad endorsed the assasination of Kab,
then that was clearly a mistake, an error born of arrogance, maybe
even stupidity. The difference is, In the case of Muhammad, I do not
have to be a hypothetical unbeliever to see this.
In my opinion, It is perfectly possible to be a believing Muslim and
to be critical (notwithstanding what fundamentalists and idiotic
zealots may tell you) of some of Muhammad's actions, just as it is
possible to be appreciative of the vast majority of them. Muhammad
himself is reported to be admitting to the fact that occasionally he
is in error. This is pointed out to underscore the fact that he is
mortal, not divine. His mortality and his imperfections (arising from
his humanity) are central to the Islamic faith. To deny him his
imperfection would be to attribute divinity to him, and nothing can
be closer to heresy than to attribute divinity to a human being, no
matter how expemplary that human being is or can be.
I hope you have an answer to your question by now.
best
Shuddha
> IInder,
> My question has still been left unanswered. Let me repeat it again ...
>
> " Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something
> from Holy
> Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] .
>
> Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you had wet pants.
>
> Pawan
>
>
> On 4/23/09, Inder Salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who
>> was not a favourite with the ruling elite of Dashratha's Kingdom,
>> but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the
>> palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives
>> of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile
>> in the forests. How come, the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet
>> himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such
>> a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love. I
>> believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself,
>> and
>> that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great
>> valmiki,
>> the untouchable...
>>
>> Shamuka , say, imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet
>> himself, who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet
>> has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a
>> character,
>>
>> See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why
>> there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other
>> village girls.
>>
>> so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of
>> humor and reasoning intact.
>>
>> with love and regards
>> inder salim
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani
>> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Dear Shuddha,
>>> I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we
>>> quote
>>> something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] .
>>>
>>>
>>> Lean to respect religion and faith.
>>>
>>> Pawan
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <
>> shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who
>>>> once killed a scholar called Shambuka
>>>> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that
>>>> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures,
>>>> even with his mind.
>>>>
>>>> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars
>>>> for
>>>> the crime of their curiosity? No, I would not. I touch a lot of
>>>> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid
>>>> kings
>>>> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram
>>>> Rajya
>>>> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays
>>>> that way.
>>>>
>>>> best
>>>>
>>>> Shuddha
>>>> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was
>>>>>> kshatriya
>>>>> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public
>>>>> opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject
>>>>> made him
>>>>> take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was
>>>>> pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public
>>>>> opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru
>>>>> media
>>>>> and other means for their agendas, is my perception".."
>>>>>
>>>>> But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just
>>>>> your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram.
>>>>> Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of
>>>>> "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing
>>>>> different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes!
>>>>>
>>>>> While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of
>>>>> ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of
>>>>> human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity
>>>>> perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the
>>>>> name of
>>>>> 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious
>>>>> of the
>>>>> chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take
>>>>> recourse
>>>>> to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify
>>>>> throwing
>>>>> her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to
>>>>> suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is
>>>>> nothing but
>>>>> projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else,
>>>>> skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The
>>>>> kind of
>>>>> relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have
>>>>> gone to
>>>>> deep trouble even otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull
>>>>> stories
>>>>> about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence
>>>>> against women and the lower caste people might be part of the
>>>>> essence
>>>>> of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is
>>>>> what many
>>>>> people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are
>>>>> supporting
>>>>> this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of
>>>>> our ills.
>>>>> The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe
>>>>> these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Venu
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi
>>>>> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Venu;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic
>>>>>> society
>>>>>> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking
>>>>>> itself is
>>>>>> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino
>>>>>> bhavanthu,
>>>>>> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated,
>>>>>> denied
>>>>>> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is
>>>>>> more on
>>>>>> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life
>>>>>> encourages such in
>>>>>> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> the place
>>>>>> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> happened
>>>>>> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of
>>>>>> Kerala.
>>>>>> Shah Bano
>>>>>> case would not have been the instance to talk about where
>>>>>> livelihood was
>>>>>> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> shoots
>>>>>> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not
>>>>>> proclaim
>>>>>> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own
>>>>>> daughter. With
>>>>>> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way
>>>>>> of life
>>>>>> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons
>>>>>> like Raja
>>>>>> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern
>>>>>> times even
>>>>>> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society
>>>>>> treats the
>>>>>> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to
>>>>>> come from
>>>>>> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in
>>>>>> Dowry act,
>>>>>> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the
>>>>>> roman
>>>>>> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and
>>>>>> lavish dory
>>>>>> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with
>>>>>> substantially
>>>>>> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> told to
>>>>>> me by a bishop friend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of
>>>>>> life, hindu is
>>>>>> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is
>>>>>> hindu, as
>>>>>> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was
>>>>>> kshatriya
>>>>>> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for
>>>>>> public
>>>>>> opinion.
>>>>>> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him
>>>>>> take
>>>>>> the harsh
>>>>>> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Ashram.
>>>>>> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they
>>>>>> did , but
>>>>>> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their
>>>>>> agendas, is my
>>>>>> perception.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rajen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M
>>>>>> <kmvenuannur at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Rajen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one
>>>>>>> will stand
>>>>>>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you
>>>>>>> were stating
>>>>>>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the
>>>>>>> exceptionally
>>>>>>> institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and
>>>>>>> cultural
>>>>>>> life of
>>>>>>> India.
>>>>>>> This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example
>>>>>>> after the
>>>>>>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire
>>>>>>> people of a
>>>>>>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping,
>>>>>>> (women),killing and
>>>>>>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a
>>>>>>> dalit family
>>>>>>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> one month?
>>>>>>> So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical
>>>>>>> ways of
>>>>>>> thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but
>>>>>>> more as a
>>>>>>> collective and typically negative attitude. It is
>>>>>>> characterized by
>>>>>>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of
>>>>>>> caste
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are
>>>>>>> automatically
>>>>>>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen
>>>>>>> in every
>>>>>>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not
>>>>>>> giving birth
>>>>>>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc
>>>>>>> are viewed
>>>>>>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely
>>>>>>> negative
>>>>>>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to
>>>>>>> protect the
>>>>>>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are
>>>>>>> generally what
>>>>>>> are considered as traits associated with
>>>>>>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority
>>>>>>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-
>>>>>>> opted
>>>>>>> to it;
>>>>>>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been
>>>>>>> taught to them
>>>>>>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without
>>>>>>> grumbles and
>>>>>>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam
>>>>>>> guna karma
>>>>>>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your
>>>>>>> past karma
>>>>>>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-
>>>>>>> this is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't
>>>>>>> remember it
>>>>>>> correctly)
>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu
>>>>>>> scriptures and
>>>>>>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of
>>>>>>> dalits as
>>>>>>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will
>>>>>>> attempt to
>>>>>>> cover up
>>>>>>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the
>>>>>>> upper caste
>>>>>>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant
>>>>>>> factors
>>>>>>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and
>>>>>>> interpretor of
>>>>>>> Gita and
>>>>>>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of
>>>>>>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own
>>>>>>> notion..so are
>>>>>>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser
>>>>>>> degree in
>>>>>>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of
>>>>>>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to
>>>>>>> resist
>>>>>>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a
>>>>>>> minority.
>>>>>>> Certainly,
>>>>>>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant
>>>>>>> role in
>>>>>>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet
>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to
>>>>>>> challenge this
>>>>>>> privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways.
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Venu.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Venu.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi
>>>>>>> <rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Venu,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of
>>>>>>>> hate, if one
>>>>>>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of
>>>>>>>> brahminical
>>>>>>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if
>>>>>>>> otherwise it
>>>>>>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste",
>>>>>>>> then may be
>>>>>>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above
>>>>>>>> the caste and
>>>>>>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you
>>>>>>>> start with
>>>>>>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who
>>>>>>>> takes up
>>>>>>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the issues,
>>>>>>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra,
>>>>>>>> Gayathri, is
>>>>>>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are
>>>>>>>> also are
>>>>>>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but
>>>>>>>> behaviour is that
>>>>>>>> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his
>>>>>>>> acts and
>>>>>>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr.
>>>>>>>> Joshi, who
>>>>>>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind
>>>>>>>> such rituals,
>>>>>>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give
>>>>>>>> the right to
>>>>>>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that
>>>>>>>> once the
>>>>>>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is
>>>>>>>> vowed
>>>>>>>> to go for
>>>>>>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days,
>>>>>>>> hazardous, it
>>>>>>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long
>>>>>>>> journey
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting
>>>>>>>> education at
>>>>>>>> hop, skip
>>>>>>>> and jump distances from homes these days.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in
>>>>>>>> Karnataka
>>>>>>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so
>>>>>>>> the education
>>>>>>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation,
>>>>>>>> judge the
>>>>>>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again
>>>>>>>> run by
>>>>>>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is
>>>>>>>> not what
>>>>>>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in
>>>>>>>> news in
>>>>>>>> this age of
>>>>>>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and
>>>>>>>> their behaviour
>>>>>>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media,
>>>>>>>> where anchors
>>>>>>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and
>>>>>>>> bodies.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rajen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/
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>>>>
>>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>>>> Raqs Media Collective
>>>> shuddha at sarai.net
>>>> www.sarai.net
>>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>>
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Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net
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