[Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10 myths about pakistan

Tue Jan 20 05:27:12 IST 2009

Dear Kshmendra,

underground = not public
therefore the statement is exact:
"anything since then is underground and not tolerated".

if however the breach occurs in parts which are already under rebellion and
fighting the state : waziristan (2006 story),  or banned outfits who have
been locked up and sent to guantanamo (Mush is accused of selling 600
people) - your bad jihadis  then that cant be public. infact they were the
waziristanis were looting banks in karachi to finance their war against the
Pak army & US. that takes care of the waziristan item.

The MMA story (2003) is when they were in negotiations with Mush (for money)
to okay the LFO legitimizing Mush's Army rule/presidency extension. in any
case MMA was a nonstarter as a party coalition and were under army
control/maneuvering. this is pure & empty populism in the name of religion.
iit is meaningless nonsense.

The qurbani hides story is the most recent (2008) and shows how utterly
powerless or oblivious the state is at the moment, to the internal groups
who may or may not be challenging the state, with their own agenda, like JuD
(in Punjab, NWFP and Islamabad.) I agree with zaffar abbas that zardari may
not like this happening, but some elements might be sheltering them and
their funds. i would not call this 'public' either. this might be  the
çlosest case', but things are very murky at the moment - what is and is not
in govt control.

The tensions can be seen in the asia times story (2005) and also in the one
sent by Rahul.  However to say that this is the norm in parts of punjab,
nwfp and islamabad, I will have to check that, although i dont discount it,
particularly given elements such as laal masjid in islamabad and groups
originating in punjab, and the govt's history. With the current tensions on
both borders and in fata, bajaur & swat, no one knows whats happening.

as for your curious classification of jihadis: good (anti india), bad
(pro-talibanization) and tolerant (anti-US &India, non-talibanization), yes
i agree the good is the worst problem, but i dont see anything even close to
matching pre-1999 scenario of the jihadis, their open offices, and
collection boxes in shops & outfits, and the oppressive gloom and pall over
the country - the taliban being supported bt the govt. (pre 9/11).

I think we are in civil war at the moment, precisely because of the US
theatre in Afghanistan and bombing inside the Pakistan border, and the 60
year-old mutual war rhetoric with India over kashmir. It is in no one's
interest that the good, bad or tolerant jihadis win, and that's what hangs
over us. the agendas have overtaken the state. the tolerant jihadis cant
win, the good cant really be helped unless Kashmir goes away - they can
cause mayhem. the bad - children of the US afghan war effort, taken up by
the pakistanis - will not back down unless the US goes away and Pakistan
Army regrets having bombed them - vow to reduce society to Stone Age - they
dont mind being bombed into the Stone age - they are there.

Having said that the overall numbers are small.

you imply esp in your reference to the tolerant ones, that being anti-US or
anti-India amounts to being jihadi. Is that true? at least you dont
distinguish nationalism/patriotism from "jihad". If you do i am confident
the number in this group, which you say is the largest, will plummet -
besides the economic problems are just eating into incomes at the moment -
and people do know the futility of war.

best

yasir

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Dear Yasir
>
> Having aligned Pakistan with USA in the 'war against terror', Musharraf
> could ill-afford the publicly blatant calls for raising money for "Jihad"
> that were rampant all over Pakistan. "Jihad" and "Jihadist" could not be
> allowed to be the public face of Pakistan. They had to be managed/controlled
> for effective use.
>
> It would be ridiculous to suggest that the 2002 'ban' seriously dented or
> completely sent 'underground' the raising of money for Jihad. Igf nothing
> else Mosques with "Jihadi pulpits" and Madrassas with "Jihadi agendas"
> (including the 'donation boxes' on their premises) have automatically been
> fund raising places for "Jihad"
>
> As some have commentated, Musharraf and 'establishment' (read ISI) sought
> to bring about a distinction between "Good Jihadis" (those who were to wage
> Jihad against India) and the "Bad Jihadis" (who want Talibisation of
> Pakistan). Then there are also the "we dont really know how to deal with
> them Jihadis" who are sworn enemies of USA and India but could live with a
> Non-Talibanised Pakistan. In my opinion, this category forms the largest
> group and also reflects the thinking of the majority of Pakistanis.
>
> Squeeze on the (never can be eliminated) funding of the "Bad Jihadis" did
> not stop the Pakistani Establishment from turning a convienient blind eye to
> the raising of funds by the "Good Jihadis" or their operating quite openly
> all over Pakistan. They did so not with impunity but with the blessings of
> the Pakistani Establishment.
>
> Your statement "cleaned-up in 2002 ..... anything since then is underground
> and not
> tolerated" is a non-fact.
>
> A few reports. All post 2002:
>
> 1.  http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC11Df07.html
>
> In "The jihad lives on" (March 2005), Amir Mir writes:
>
> "The Lashkar leadership describes Hindus and Jews as the main enemies of
> Islam, claiming India and Israel to be the main enemies of Pakistan. The
> donation boxes of the Lashkar and the Dawa, which had initially
> disappeared after the January 2002 ban, have reappeared in public places, as
> well as mosques all over Punjab."
>
>
>
>
>
> " While banning six leading jihadi and sectarian groups in two phases - on
> January 12, 2002, and November 15, 2003 - Musharraf had declared that no
> organization or person would be allowed to indulge in terrorism to further
> its cause. However, after the initial crackdown, the four major jihadi
> outfits operating from Pakistan - Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), Jaish-e-Mohammad
> (JeM), Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HuM) and Hizb-ul-Mujahideen (HM), resurfaced
> and regrouped effectively to run their respective networks as openly as
> before, though under different names."
>
>
>
> "Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, Maulana Masood Azhar, Maulana Fazalur Rehman Khalil
> and Syed Salahuddin - the respective leaders of these organizations - are
> again on the loose. The pattern of treatment being meted out to these
> leading lights of jihad by the Musharraf-led administration shows that they
> are being kept on the leash, ostensibly to wage a controlled jihad in Jammu
> & Kashmir (J&K)."
>
> 2. http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/06/nat34.htm
>
> In the report "Jihad only solution to occupation" (Feb 2003):
>
> "Despite official ban the JI and Hizbul Mujahideen had set up donation camp
> at Khyber Bazaar and distributed pamphlets, carrying Jihadi messages."
>
> 3. http://www.dawn.com/2006/11/06/top7.htm
>
> Some relevant extracts from this report (Nov 2006):
>
> "A Shura (council) of militant groups in the North and South Waziristan
> ......appoint a committee to collect donations to finance Mujahideen's
> activities."
>
>
>
> " "Nobody will be allowed to collect donations and the amount collected as
> donation will be utilised for bearing expenses of the activities of
> Mujahideen," according to one pamphlet."
>
> 4. http://www.dawn.com/2008/12/14/top9.htm
>
> Not much is left to imagination in the slogan quoted in this Dec 2008
> report on the collection of the hides of animals sacrificed at the time of
> Eid ul Adha:
>
> " "QURBANI ki khalain un ke liye ... gin ka lahu Islam ke liye" (Hides of
> sacrificial animals for those who dedicate/shed their blood for Islam). So
> says a bold inscription on a big plastic bag meant for stuffing and carrying
> such hides."
>
>
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 1/19/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10 myths
> about pakistan
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 3:00 PM
>
> On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 4:45 AM, Rahul Asthana
> <rahul_capri at yahoo.com
> >wrote:
>
> > There are/were jihadi donation boxes in all the major cities of Pakistan.
>
> Those, along with wall chalkings for 'jihadi camp training' were
> cleaned up
> by Musharraf in around 2002. so anything since then is underground and not
> tolerated.
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