[Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10 myths about pakistan

Tue Jan 20 19:34:02 IST 2009

Dear Yasir

Thanks for your response.

The news reports posted were from a hurried search and did not presume to tell all stories. There are quite a few other commentaries and 'reportings' available about the continuation of fund raising for "Jihad". The Non-Pakistanis could be put aside with the possibility of being biased or indulging in propaganda. When Pakistanis author such 'reportings' you are told much more than what is being written.   

I will not argue over the perspectives you have given. Pertinent though for two reasons is the most recent one quoted about "give us the hides for Jihad". The raising of money for Jihad certainly did not end with the '2002 ban' and even if open placement of 'donation boxes' lessened/ended, other systems for fund raising seem to have continued or innovated.

Rahul pointed out that "...since JUD engages into a lot of charitable activities as well,it can solicit funds openly and then use it for training terrorists."  I tried to make the same point for a vaster scenario of """"Mosques with "Jihadi pulpits" and Madrassas with "Jihadi agendas"  (including the 'donation boxes' on their premises) have automatically been fund raising places for "Jihad"."""""

Yasir, there is enough evidence available (both from reportings and reasonable deductions) that while some Jihadi groups perforce went 'underground', others were 'sent underground and tolerated'. The toleration extended itself to 'same Jihadi wine in new-name organisational bottles'.  Perhaps 'banned by Law' but tolerated/controlled/promoted by the "Pakistani Establishment'.

The "Good Jihadis" are a problem for India. They are obviously thought of as being "good" and useful for Pakistan. 

Very frankly, if Pakistan and it's people want to subscribe to Jihad in whatever form they think is Islamic, it is their internal issue. The problem is when they try to Export it to India. Other countries have similar issues with Pakistan. 

The bigger concern for me as an Indian, is that this disgusting and convoluted interpretation of Jihad which gets translated into Islamic Terrorism, seems to be corrupting the thinking of some citizens of India who are Muslims. We in India, then have to contend with Hindu Terrorism,  whether as a reaction or as "showing it's head after waiting in hibernation for the right season".

You said that I have ignored the possibility of nationalism/patriotism being the drive for those I referred to as "...'we dont really know how to deal with them Jihadis ' who are sworn enemies of USA and India but could live with a Non-Talibanised Pakistan."  The "tolerated Jihadis" (not tolerant).  I also said that "this category forms the largest group and also reflects the thinking of the majority of Pakistanis." I will now go further and say that these are the overwhelming majority of the citizens of Pakistan.

Is their nationalism/patriotism and Anti-India or Anti-USA passion a "Jihadi" one? Of course it is because it has no rationale behind it other than an Islamic one based on "we Muslims of the world". Some call it the "Pan Islamic" world-view and the associated "Jihad".

If 1971 is blamed by Pakistanis on India, what about the years between 1947 and 1971? What harm had India done to Pakistan? If Kashmir is the issue then it is for the Pakistanis only an Islamic or Muslim issue. Is it something else?

We have had a discussion on this earlier too; when the Text Books for children promote certain recognitions of India and especially Hindus, then it is a pysche against India which is being infused in Pakistanis. 'India' and 'Hindu' is interchangeable for most Pakistanis Hate against Non-Muslims is the drive and not nationalism/patriotism.  

Pre USA bombings of Pakistan under the "War on Terror" theatrics, what harm had USA done to Pakistan that it should have been hated so vehemently by the Pakistanis? Because of the Israeli/Palestinian issue? What is that if not an Islamic issue for the Pakistanis?

It is not illogical to expect the nationalism/patriotism of Pakistanis to be Islamic in nature. It is afterall an Islamic Republic and was carved out in the name of Islam. The Pakistani obsession with Islam is understandable. It should not be surprising that most issues are looked at through the Islamic lens and while the State might or might not be interested in or capable of waging Jihad, whenever Pakistan has been involved in 'war', the call is of Jihad. The same holds true for the people of Pakistan too, whether they are killing each other, or killing others (even when banned and underground). It is Jihad. Such is the manner in which Islam has been adopted and propagated in Pakistan. 

The progression from the 'hate indoctrination through Text Books' and nurturing by the 'obsession with Islam'  can be seen in Pakistani's referring to Pakistan's Nuclear Capability as the "Islamic Bomb' or "Muslim Bomb" (personally have heard that repeatedly mentioned in discussions on GEO, ARY, PTV-World). That tells you something about the psyche of Pakistanis. That is not nationalism or patriotism.

It is always a pleasure to read your postings Yasir. Best regards.

Kshmendra

--- On Tue, 1/20/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote:

From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10 myths about pakistan
To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 5:27 AM

Dear Kshmendra,

underground = not public
therefore the statement is exact:
"anything since then is underground and not tolerated".

if however the breach occurs in parts which are already under rebellion and
fighting the state : waziristan (2006 story),  or banned outfits who have
been locked up and sent to guantanamo (Mush is accused of selling 600
people) - your bad jihadis  then that cant be public. infact they were the
waziristanis were looting banks in karachi to finance their war against the
Pak army & US. that takes care of the waziristan item.

The MMA story (2003) is when they were in negotiations with Mush (for money)
to okay the LFO legitimizing Mush's Army rule/presidency extension. in any
case MMA was a nonstarter as a party coalition and were under army
control/maneuvering. this is pure & empty populism in the name of religion.
iit is meaningless nonsense.

The qurbani hides story is the most recent (2008) and shows how utterly
powerless or oblivious the state is at the moment, to the internal groups
who may or may not be challenging the state, with their own agenda, like JuD
(in Punjab, NWFP and Islamabad.) I agree with zaffar abbas that zardari may
not like this happening, but some elements might be sheltering them and
their funds. i would not call this 'public' either. this might be  the
çlosest case', but things are very murky at the moment - what is and is
not
in govt control.

The tensions can be seen in the asia times story (2005) and also in the one
sent by Rahul.  However to say that this is the norm in parts of punjab,
nwfp and islamabad, I will have to check that, although i dont discount it,
particularly given elements such as laal masjid in islamabad and groups
originating in punjab, and the govt's history. With the current tensions on
both borders and in fata, bajaur & swat, no one knows whats happening.

as for your curious classification of jihadis: good (anti india), bad
(pro-talibanization) and tolerant (anti-US &India, non-talibanization), yes
i agree the good is the worst problem, but i dont see anything even close to
matching pre-1999 scenario of the jihadis, their open offices, and
collection boxes in shops & outfits, and the oppressive gloom and pall over
the country - the taliban being supported bt the govt. (pre 9/11).

I think we are in civil war at the moment, precisely because of the US
theatre in Afghanistan and bombing inside the Pakistan border, and the 60
year-old mutual war rhetoric with India over kashmir. It is in no one's
interest that the good, bad or tolerant jihadis win, and that's what hangs
over us. the agendas have overtaken the state. the tolerant jihadis cant
win, the good cant really be helped unless Kashmir goes away - they can
cause mayhem. the bad - children of the US afghan war effort, taken up by
the pakistanis - will not back down unless the US goes away and Pakistan
Army regrets having bombed them - vow to reduce society to Stone Age - they
dont mind being bombed into the Stone age - they are there.

Having said that the overall numbers are small.

you imply esp in your reference to the tolerant ones, that being anti-US or
anti-India amounts to being jihadi. Is that true? at least you dont
distinguish nationalism/patriotism from "jihad". If you do i am
confident
the number in this group, which you say is the largest, will plummet -
besides the economic problems are just eating into incomes at the moment -
and people do know the futility of war.

best

yasir

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
<kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Dear Yasir
>
> Having aligned Pakistan with USA in the 'war against terror',
Musharraf
> could ill-afford the publicly blatant calls for raising money for
"Jihad"
> that were rampant all over Pakistan. "Jihad" and
"Jihadist" could not be
> allowed to be the public face of Pakistan. They had to be
managed/controlled
> for effective use.
>
> It would be ridiculous to suggest that the 2002 'ban' seriously
dented or
> completely sent 'underground' the raising of money for Jihad. Igf
nothing
> else Mosques with "Jihadi pulpits" and Madrassas with
"Jihadi agendas"
> (including the 'donation boxes' on their premises) have
automatically been
> fund raising places for "Jihad"
>
> As some have commentated, Musharraf and 'establishment' (read ISI)
sought
> to bring about a distinction between "Good Jihadis" (those who
were to wage
> Jihad against India) and the "Bad Jihadis" (who want
Talibisation of
> Pakistan). Then there are also the "we dont really know how to deal
with
> them Jihadis" who are sworn enemies of USA and India but could live
with a
> Non-Talibanised Pakistan. In my opinion, this category forms the largest
> group and also reflects the thinking of the majority of Pakistanis.
>
> Squeeze on the (never can be eliminated) funding of the "Bad
Jihadis" did
> not stop the Pakistani Establishment from turning a convienient blind eye
to
> the raising of funds by the "Good Jihadis" or their operating
quite openly
> all over Pakistan. They did so not with impunity but with the blessings of
> the Pakistani Establishment.
>
> Your statement "cleaned-up in 2002 ..... anything since then is
underground
> and not
> tolerated" is a non-fact.
>
> A few reports. All post 2002:
>
> 1.  http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC11Df07.html
>
> In "The jihad lives on" (March 2005), Amir Mir writes:
>
> "The Lashkar leadership describes Hindus and Jews as the main enemies
of
> Islam, claiming India and Israel to be the main enemies of Pakistan. The
> donation boxes of the Lashkar and the Dawa, which had initially
> disappeared after the January 2002 ban, have reappeared in public places,
as
> well as mosques all over Punjab."
>
>
>
>
>
> " While banning six leading jihadi and sectarian groups in two phases
- on
> January 12, 2002, and November 15, 2003 - Musharraf had declared that no
> organization or person would be allowed to indulge in terrorism to further
> its cause. However, after the initial crackdown, the four major jihadi
> outfits operating from Pakistan - Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), Jaish-e-Mohammad
> (JeM), Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HuM) and Hizb-ul-Mujahideen (HM), resurfaced
> and regrouped effectively to run their respective networks as openly as
> before, though under different names."
>
>
>
> "Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, Maulana Masood Azhar, Maulana Fazalur Rehman
Khalil
> and Syed Salahuddin - the respective leaders of these organizations - are
> again on the loose. The pattern of treatment being meted out to these
> leading lights of jihad by the Musharraf-led administration shows that
they
> are being kept on the leash, ostensibly to wage a controlled jihad in
Jammu
> & Kashmir (J&K)."
>
> 2. http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/06/nat34.htm
>
> In the report "Jihad only solution to occupation" (Feb 2003):
>
> "Despite official ban the JI and Hizbul Mujahideen had set up
donation camp
> at Khyber Bazaar and distributed pamphlets, carrying Jihadi
messages."
>
> 3. http://www.dawn.com/2006/11/06/top7.htm
>
> Some relevant extracts from this report (Nov 2006):
>
> "A Shura (council) of militant groups in the North and South
Waziristan
> ......appoint a committee to collect donations to finance Mujahideen's
> activities."
>
>
>
> " "Nobody will be allowed to collect donations and the amount
collected as
> donation will be utilised for bearing expenses of the activities of
> Mujahideen," according to one pamphlet."
>
> 4. http://www.dawn.com/2008/12/14/top9.htm
>
> Not much is left to imagination in the slogan quoted in this Dec 2008
> report on the collection of the hides of animals sacrificed at the time of
> Eid ul Adha:
>
> " "QURBANI ki khalain un ke liye ... gin ka lahu Islam ke
liye" (Hides of
> sacrificial animals for those who dedicate/shed their blood for Islam). So
> says a bold inscription on a big plastic bag meant for stuffing and
carrying
> such hides."
>
>
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 1/19/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>*
wrote:
>
> From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10
myths
> about pakistan
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 3:00 PM
>
> On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 4:45 AM, Rahul Asthana
> <rahul_capri at yahoo.com
> >wrote:
>
> > There are/were jihadi donation boxes in all the major cities of
Pakistan.
>
> Those, along with wall chalkings for 'jihadi camp training' were
> cleaned up
> by Musharraf in around 2002. so anything since then is underground and not
> tolerated.
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