[Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10 myths about pakistan

[yasir ~يا سر]

Dear K, see below.

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>wrote:

Dear Yasir
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
> The news reports posted were from a hurried search and did not presume to
> tell all stories. There are quite a few other commentaries and 'reportings'
> available about the continuation of fund raising for "Jihad". The
> Non-Pakistanis could be put aside with the possibility of being biased or
> indulging in propaganda. When Pakistanis author such 'reportings' you are
> told much more than what is being written.
>
> I will not argue over the perspectives you have given. Pertinent though for
> two reasons is the most recent one quoted about "give us the hides for
> Jihad". The raising of money for Jihad certainly did not end with the '2002
> ban' and even if open placement of 'donation boxes' lessened/ended,
> other systems for fund raising seem to have continued or innovated.
>
> Rahul pointed out that "...since JUD engages into a lot of charitable
> activities as well,it can solicit funds openly and then use it for training
> terrorists."  I tried to make the same point for a vaster scenario of
> """"Mosques with "Jihadi pulpits" and Madrassas with "Jihadi agendas"
> (including the 'donation boxes' on their premises) have automatically been
> fund raising places for "Jihad"."""""
>
> Yasir, there is enough evidence available (both from reportings and
> reasonable deductions) that while some Jihadi groups perforce went
> 'underground', others were 'sent underground and tolerated'. The toleration
> extended itself to 'same Jihadi wine in new-name organisational
> bottles'.  Perhaps 'banned by Law' but tolerated/controlled/promoted by the
> "Pakistani Establishment'.
>

I am with you thus far.


>
> The "Good Jihadis" are a problem for India. They are obviously thought of
> as being "good" and useful for Pakistan.
>
> Very frankly, if Pakistan and it's people want to subscribe to Jihad in
> whatever form they think is Islamic, it is their internal issue. The problem
> is when they try to Export it to India. Other countries have similar issues
> with Pakistan.
>

I think apart from the irregulars raised time and gain from the tribes,
there are no previous instances of any major jihad activity, going back to
Syed Ahmed shaheed of Balakot fighting jihad against the mughal emperor or
was it ranjit singh [?].

The recent story picks up in 1979 when Zbigniew Brzenski came down to rally
the afghan tribes for a jihad against the soviets and launched the call for
"jihad" - essentially using the religious call while giving money (to
afghans & pakistanis, throw in saudis, iranis, etc) to fight the soviets in
Afghanistan.

http://eldib.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/interview-of-zbigniew-brzezinski-how-i-started-the-mujahideen-and-the-jihad/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJTv2nFjMBk

Without giving a thought to reconstruction or engaging the irregulars in
normal activities, as you know aghanistan was left to rot until taliban were
able to subdue the others with Pak Army's help and enforce peace.  In a
nutshell the chicken have come home to roost - the human onslaught following
9-11 in afghanistan has brought the tribes to lock themselves over time into
war, like they have done from time immemorial, whether under hindu shahis,
against alexander or babur. This is not ending ... and it has spread into
pakistan and india too is locked into the knot.

1995 produced the insurgency across the kashmir loc, as you know along the
same remote control strategy that had applied to the taliban.


>
> The bigger concern for me as an Indian, is that this disgusting and
> convoluted interpretation of Jihad which gets translated into Islamic
> Terrorism, seems to be corrupting the thinking of some citizens of India who
> are Muslims. We in India, then have to contend with Hindu
> Terrorism,  whether as a reaction or as "showing it's head after waiting in
> hibernation for the right season".
>
>
I see it as a spill over effect coming from the afghan theatre. the region
needs to get its act together !   - i agree its happened.


> You said that I have ignored the possibility of nationalism/patriotism
> being the drive for those I referred to as "...'we dont really know how to
> deal with them Jihadis ' who are sworn enemies of USA and India but could
> live with a Non-Talibanised Pakistan."  The "tolerated Jihadis" (not
> tolerant).  I also said that "this category forms the largest group and also
> reflects the thinking of the majority of Pakistanis." I will now go further
> and say that these are the overwhelming majority of the citizens of
> Pakistan.
>

by tolerant i was translating you :  ... Jihadis" who are sworn enemies of
USA and India but *could live* with a Non-Talibanised Pakistan" - i guess by
'could live' you mean the population could live with them. ok.

as I said throughout history (religious or tribal or most contexts) such a
hawkish group has always been there. in the tribal context, you get local
knowledge of terrain, etc. but this thinking *cannot *be eliminated - but
certainly restrained through better knowledge and socialization into better
governance, civic values. religion simly provides a convenient common cover
and rallying call. there is no real religious/spiritual movement here - only
political stuff.


>
> Is their nationalism/patriotism and Anti-India or Anti-USA passion a
> "Jihadi" one? Of course it is because it has no rationale behind it other
> than an Islamic one based on "we Muslims of the world". Some call it the
> "Pan Islamic" world-view and the associated "Jihad".
>
> If 1971 is blamed by Pakistanis on India, what about the years between 1947
> and 1971? What harm had India done to Pakistan? If Kashmir is the issue then
> it is for the Pakistanis only an Islamic or Muslim issue. Is it something
> else?
>

my previous comment will suffice. Again the Islamic call is essentially a
political ruse. Pakistan has basically tried to challenge indian hegemony in
the region, locked as they are from birth with the unresolved Kashmir wound.
Plus Pakistan has been insecure from birth, hence the predominance of the
army... Kashmir and Palestine are leftovers from decolonization - why are
they left unresolved and who is to blame. (In my book its the Partition
process/context or even the idea..)  Pan-islamism is easy from here. but as
the US intervention in aghanistan, iran iraq, egypt shows, anyone can be
bought and used, for mutual convenience. so pan-islamism is real and not
real too - it is also so irrelevant ( see OIC) ... i am not doubting that
people cant be rallied around it - thats what the US did in getting the
afghan tribes to fight together against the soviets. but there is no such
thing as pure jihad today - its fiction - except in osama's book and those
who read it.



>
> We have had a discussion on this earlier too; when the Text Books for
> children promote certain recognitions of India and especially Hindus, then
> it is a pysche against India which is being infused in Pakistanis. 'India'
> and 'Hindu' is interchangeable for most Pakistanis Hate against
> Non-Muslims is the drive and not nationalism/patriotism.
>

i agree its there - its misused - same answer


>
> Pre USA bombings of Pakistan under the "War on Terror" theatrics, what harm
> had USA done to Pakistan that it should have been hated so vehemently by the
> Pakistanis? Because of the Israeli/Palestinian issue? What is that if not an
> Islamic issue for the Pakistanis?
>

there is a lot here - for example one thing is Brezenski's (US Sec of State)
intervention in the end of the cold war. The US has systematically
intervened in every country in the region and the middle east with much
drive - and its earned the wrath of the people - there was a time when
everyone just wanted to be american just like in the movies - nobody objects
to moving there.

see bbc documentary 'power of nightmares' for the kind of argument i am
making:
http://www.wanttoknow.info/powerofnightmares



>
> It is not illogical to expect the nationalism/patriotism of Pakistanis to
> be Islamic in nature. It is afterall an Islamic Republic and was carved out
> in the name of Islam. The Pakistani obsession with Islam is understandable.
> It should not be surprising that most issues are looked at through the
> Islamic lens and while the State might or might not be interested in or
> capable of waging Jihad, whenever Pakistan has been involved in 'war', the
> call is of Jihad. The same holds true for the people of Pakistan too,
> whether they are killing each other, or killing others (even when banned and
> underground). It is Jihad. Such is the manner in which Islam has been
> adopted and propagated in Pakistan.
>

there is a misperception, the country was divided so that *muslims* would be
able to live free of hindu domination in muslim dominated provinces, etc -
not to create an *islamic* state ( as the relionists argue), as a modern
secular country with minorities (very much like israel) - both have not
lived up to it and have unresolved religion issues. this is obviously more
complex, considering for example if the british had provided security for
the region for 30 years after partition, if there had been a common working
federation, etc.

Your ideas are over exaggerating jihad. as i said it has its uses. the loose
groups need to be brought in, restrained etc


>
> The progression from the 'hate indoctrination through Text Books' and
> nurturing by the 'obsession with Islam'  can be seen in
> Pakistani's referring to Pakistan's Nuclear Capability as the "Islamic Bomb'
> or "Muslim Bomb" (personally have heard that repeatedly mentioned in
> discussions on GEO, ARY, PTV-World). That tells you something about the
> psyche of Pakistanis. That is not nationalism or patriotism.
>

i disagree. its only political. its only to arouse emotions for outrage that
we love to do so much   :)    it is a disgrace to name a bomb islamic, and
to go on this senseless emotional ride - totally irreligious.


>
> It is always a pleasure to read your postings Yasir. Best regards.
>
> Kshmendra
>

i enjoy this useless activity occasionally myself  :)

best
yasir