[Reader-list] Fw: Baba Ramdev claims Yoga has a cure...

[Manak Matiyani]

Dear All,
As the debate on homosexuality in the indian media gets more and more
ridiculous we all wait for the government to finally take a stand. Although
one hears now that the center would ask for an extension to file their reply
to the supreme court. The heated public opinions makes it difficult for them
to support the high court decision without losing the support of religious
leaders.

Personally, I feel baba Ramdev seems to be against sex in general and hopes
to cure homosexuals well enough to produce children in dysfunctional,
loveless families. The problem with current religious leaders is that they
want to brush the fact of sex and sexuality under the carpet, or in this
case, into the closet as though finding joy in sex itself were the disease.
"Love your friends, love your parents, love many men, but there should be no
sexual desire (vaasana) in that " says the Baba. And this call for a sexless
life seems to find many followers as long as their own joys and acts are
covered by the stamp of heterosexual marriage.  Frankly, i've heard the sex
for procreation lectures for a long time and and i refuse to buy it. Last
time i checked, condom's were not freely available in nature, yet the
government distributes them and for good reason. Our ideas or sex, sexuality
and love must all evolve with the time, as has baba Ramdev's yoga!

I wonder how firmly the moral fabric of a society balancing on the thin
string of lies and deception will hold. What good will the criminalisation
of homosexuality would achieve other than forcing a large section of the
population back into a life of fear and unable to participate in the joys of
loving and living freely. The self appointed custodians of social and moral
fabric should perhaps engage themselves with the many other wrongs of our
society and leave the few rights alone.

The one thing that is clear is that  Ramdev's petition is scientifically ill
founded and weak, but would go a long way riding on his popularity and
public appeal. Today, in psychology it would be malpractice to say
homosexuality is a disease that can be cured. Medical science has for long
cleared that doubt for all of us. The reading down of an archaic law was
another positive step in the direction of a free and just society. The
social stigma remains, but perhaps that too would gradually change. Religion
and religious leaders can only guide the lives of their followers and not
dictate legislation.

My knowledge of yoga, indian scriptures and scientific basis for
homosexuality is very limited, so i thought it wise to post an insightful
article that i came across to add to this discussion.

Here's Devdutt Pattanaik's response to the baba's tirade.

http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/jul/10/baba-ramdev-is-wrong-homosexuality-is-no-disease.htm

Manak.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

*Baba Ramdev is wrong, homosexuality is no disease*
*Dr Devdutt Pattanaik*
*
*
*July 10, 2009
Baba Ramdev calls homosexuality a disease. No textbook of psychiatry says
so. The World Health Organisation does not say so. And no, not even the
scriptures, certainly not the Yoga Sutra, says so. In all probability, this
is the Baba's personal opinion. He has a right to his opinion. But can a
country's law be based on his opinion?

The problem is that the Baba is a celebrity and in the times we live in,
celebrities, especially those with a religious and cultural aura, are seen
as voices of authority. We must be careful about such opinions. The practice
of using science to justify social prejudices is not something new. Baba
Ramdev [Images<http://search.rediff.com/imgsrch/default.php?MT=baba%20ramdev>
], with his charm and benign smile, is doing what has been done before.

I remember an old black and white film starring Nutan called Sujata where a
respected elder of the family explains the physiological reason for
sustaining the practice of untouchability. 'They produce a lethal gas,' he
said referring to the Dalits. Because the gentleman had standing, his
opinion mattered. Many people agreed with the learned family friend. Not the
hero. Not us.

In Hitler's [Images <http://search.rediff.com/imgsrch/default.php?MT=hitler>
] Germany [Images <http://search.rediff.com/imgsrch/default.php?MT=germany>],
hundreds of scientists dressed in white coats earnestly believed and
rationalised that Jews were a social pathology, a disease, a gangrene that
had to be wiped out to create a perfect, healthy society. This resulted in
the Holocaust. It disgusts us today.

In South Africa
[Images<http://search.rediff.com/imgsrch/default.php?MT=south%20africa>
], there were many scholars who went out of their way to publish articles to
rationalise apartheid. They considered the non-White races to be subhuman.
An entire social structure was constructed based on this ideology. We must
be careful of such rhetoric.

The term 'disease' presupposes a normal health condition. Modern medicine
uses this term very cautiously -- the patient must be distressed by it, or
it must threaten a person's well-being, before it can be labelled disease.
Disease cannot be a term used by a community to brand and weed out people
that it is uncomfortable with. An unpopular social group cannot be labelled
'diseased' to justify extermination.

In Sparta, children who were born with congenital abnormalities, say a cleft
lip and a malformed limb, were immediately killed. In the Mahabharata [
Images <http://search.rediff.com/imgsrch/default.php?MT=mahabharata>], a
blind man was not allowed to be king. In Australia
[Images<http://search.rediff.com/imgsrch/default.php?MT=australia>
], well meaning ladies funded a project to forcibly take children from
Aboriginal homes to prevent abnormal/diseased parenting and give them away
in adoption to white parents. Would we do that today?

Significantly, even the term 'supernatural' presupposes a normal state of
being. So a being with three heads in one culture would be seen as
'deformed' in another; he would be seen as 'supernatural' -- a demon for
one, a god for another. How shall we classify deities with three heads and
four arms? By whose gaze? By whose lens? By whose measuring scale? Ten
thousand years ago, when food was scarce, a fat woman was worshipped as a
goddess. Today, we consider her obese and psychologically torment her till
she diets, exercises and sheds fat. Is that fair?

Logic and science and authority can be used to justify anything. But
ultimately we have to ask -- what is our goalpost? Imagine your daughter is
getting married to a nice young man who has homosexual feelings. Until a few
weeks ago, he never told the world about it for fear of being branded a
criminal.

Now, no thanks to the Baba, he feels he is mad. He does not think so. He
does not feel so. But he is afraid to tell the world the truth of his
desires. So he has firmly entrenched himself in the closet.

He will tell no one, certainly not his mother, or father, or brother, that
he has had sex with men. Not one or two, but dozens, secretly, silently,
furtive experiences, with men who like him are afraid to disclose their
preferences in public lest they be labelled criminals or diseased.

He will marry your daughter. And your daughter will wonder why, in the
privacy of the bedroom, this nice man shuns any attempt to be being
intimate. Is she the problem? Her self worth will suffer. The marriage will
suffer. Children will be conceived in loveless unions. The man will find it
difficult to be faithful and seek comfort elsewhere. And your daughter will
wonder what is wrong.

The secret will never be revealed. Everyone in this patriarchal society will
blame the daughter. A sham of a marriage -- only because of a law, an
intolerant society and Baba's authoritative opinion.

Homosexuality is natural -- it has been documented in animal species.
Homosexual feelings are not a choice -- they exist in every human society.
Why does it exist? What purpose does it serve? No one really knows the
answer. It is like asking, why do humans experience orgasm? Orgasm does not
play any role in procreation. Why does it exist (and it is found only in the
human species and a few primates)? We can only speculate but we will never
know.

The question is -- what are we as a civil human society doing about it? Do
we call orgasm -- unnatural or miraculous, God's gift to humanity? What
behaviour do we propose? Should we act on homosexual feelings or suppress
them, stay celibate and serve society, as the good Baba suggests? Is
celibacy a 'good' thing?

In the Mahabharata, sages like Agastya, Kardama and Jaratkaru are reviled by
their ancestors for being celibate. 'Repay your debt to your ancestors,'
they demanded and forced the rishis to marry and produce children. This
desire for children stretched to a point where if one was sterile, as in
case of Pandu, one was expected to send one's wife to a stranger to get
impregnated by him.

Rishis had to have sex to produce children -- but were expected to be
disciplined enough not to get pleasure out of it, to have sex without
orgasm, for procreation, nothing else.

What about the wives of the rishis, one may ask. In one conversation with
Urvashi, female sexual desire itself is described as a disease to be
curtailed with fidelity and marriage. The epic refers to a time when women
were free to express their desires followed by a time when they were
restrained by laws of fidelity and chastity. Clearly, definition of what
constitutes normal changed over time.

The changes continued with the rise of monastic orders like Buddhism (which
incidentally popularised the saffron colour). Suddenly monasticism became
superior social behaviour. It is so even today, not just in Buddhism but
also in Jainism, in Roman Catholicism, and, thanks to the Shankaracharya,
even in Hinduism.

While Sufi mystics chose to be celibate, ask a traditional Muslim cleric if
celibacy is acceptable social behaviour. In all probability he will say no.
He will insist on marriage and children and a householder's life. So much
for celebration of celibacy.

What is normal and what is healthy is based on a measuring scale. Different
people have different measuring scales. Notions of what is normal and what
is not, what is physiological and what is pathological, change with time and
place.

In this ever fluid world, how does one separate acceptable social conduct
from what is unacceptable? Society, after all, is not a jungle.

A civil society exists to include people to enable them to live lives to
their full potential. The underlying principle is empathy. I am sure the
Baba has empathy. But he also has a measuring scale by which he considers
same sex desires a disease.

One can show him findings from the animal kingdom, one can show him
psychiatric text books, one can show him scriptural evidence of inter-sex
states -- but he will dismiss it all as 'Western'. His measuring scale does
not include everyone.

The Baba will say yoga considers homosexuality a disease. People will
believe him. The media will quote him. And it will become about yoga and
Western science. But strangely, the notion of disease does not exist in
yoga. In yoga, all discussions are about creating harmony. And what is
harmonious depends on the environment and goal -- thus, what is good in one
situation for one purpose may not be so in another. Thus, the approach to
ailment is very different form Western science.

Patanjali in his Yoga Sutra defines yoga as 'chitta vriddhi nirodha' -- the
uncrumpling of the crumpled mind. The goal post of yoga is to realise
divinity (some would say one's true self) by overpowering prejudice through
increased awareness. I suspect, despite all the asanas and the pranayamas,
the great yoga master has still some prejudices to uncrumple.

Dr Devdutt Pattanaik www.devdutt.com) is a medical doctor by training and a
mythologist by passion. After working in the pharma industry for over 14
years, he is now Chief Belief Officer at the Future Group. A renowned
speaker and columnist, he has written over a dozen books on the relevance of
sacred stories, symbols and rituals in modern times





*
On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 12:59 AM, subhrodip sengupta <
sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote:

> Dear ALL,
> Taking Psychedellic drugs, it is cliamed can give different perceptions of
> reality, than which words can express. Homosexuality can be cured. Hostel
> life makes one Homosexual. IIM's and many others have co-educational
> hostles. Its about liberty of people, and if natural order is a result of
> selection., Forces of Lord or the primordal Song best left to himself is not
> hampered with. Naah all I'd point out is not to harass people and force them
> into a cure or sterilisation. How can one prosper or be happy in such a
> society? Why are we so obsessed in other's sense of carnality, why do we
> carnally read things, may be that's the curse of Western lives, not
> homosexuality. Legalising it only gives it a broader force, and increases
> the pace of acceptance. A sad thing we needed to legalise it, which itself
> shows how benevolent are attitudes and police force against homosexuals. We
> need reproduction, a penetration of every vagina. A hymen exists in every
> society,
>  of Feeling barrier and values. Irritated of continuous Rapes, such iron
> actions need to be taken. The old joke is aids was for long in swines, man
> must have mated with a swine and thus unsafe intercourse was a check by
> LORD(do not blame me for this break, it is the joke) who wanted humans to
> behave in a certain way! Amen then, to all monks and nuns, and to most
> prophets then. Let us first, share the joke which Anupam might have taken
> too seriously or Kshmendra, in his strong reactions to the word 'Quack'. It
> is said that Ramdev had found a cure for AIDS! An accusation off course, for
> reasons well known. On another note scrapping makes us seem mordern, free of
> some horrible practices, which continue to be re-enacted. Male sexual abuse
> is kept close guarded by  helpless males thinking of the stigma and social
> unacceptance, double degree for homosexuals, and with people still  on
> everyone's head it is still annoying. Ayurveda has a secret of
>  self-selection, a well known thing. Once acused of trying to develop one
> such drug, Baba strongly shirked " IT's all the better that they did not say
> I am reproducing on other's behalf", a human joke. After Homosexuality is
> legalised, let's see what he has to say., though I might ask for
> authenticity of this news, it is Baba's personal opinion, as long as he does
> not overshoot accusing all homos and Mundas of rape.... It's us who need to
> think twice about giving the vital space, else the practice continues. And
> social consciousness thus is so important, Forced Grom Gifts, Dowry was
> always unacceptable by many, later on sometime, it got repugnant,
> It
> continues.................................................................................................................
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> To: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Saturday, 11 July, 2009 12:10:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Baba Ramdev claims Yoga has a cure...
>
> Dear Anupam
>
> I never claimed to compete with Baba Ramdev on Yoga. Neither can you,
> according to your immature statements. Well.. I know for a fact that you
> can
> only abuse/malign a certain personality with such pathetic words, but with
> no strong arguments or any basis to your imaginary claims. Give proof
> before
> you resort to any more mud slinging.
>
> Your brigade leader Brinda Karat tried once under influence from
> multinational units, but all that ended up making her mockery all the more.
> You seem to be heading in a similar direction. Only talks, backed by just
> abuses and hatred. It isn't Baba Ramdev who runs after TV or media. It is
> quite opposite. It is the same media units who beg to telecast his shows
> overtime. He has done a brilliant work over last many years which I know
> briefly about.
>
> You can't compare Baba Ramdev or for that matter anyone else just like
> that.
> Your comparson is baseless. Why don't you campaign against those media
> people to cover your friends in Vadodara ? Or are you scared of the so
> called SECULAR Media.
>
> I can only laugh at your 'name calling'. This proves my point further. Grow
> up!!! Go out of the AC Rooms and don't be a screaming animal on internet
> alone. I don't need to prove my substace. My work speaks rather than my
> words on this sarai network. You need to wake up to facts dear. Don't
> remain
> in the four walls of ignorance.
>
> I don't want you to agree with my viewpoint. We may agree to disagree. You
> shouldn't force your opinion on others.
>
> 'Pranayama' early morning may help you too friend.
>
> love
>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:54 PM, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Dear Aditya,
> >
> > First of all, your understanding about yoga is deplorable. Second, this
> > defence that you are trying to put up for Baba Ramdev and his followers
> > shows how well you understand yoga and mass hypnosis spread with
> > television..
> > in case if u plan to state that so many number of people being cured by
> > that
> > quack, then there are a couple of witch doctors who are helping out
> > government departments and NGOs in Vadodara who unlike Ramdev eating on
> air
> > time of TV channels, are doing their best to educate people in tribal
> areas
> > of chota udepur to get medicine treatment for HIV. Because the villagers
> > would not listen to a modern day doctor so the medicines have to be
> > administered with the help of witch doctors.your knowledge of indian
> > society is limited only to drawing room discussions of middle class Hindu
> > ignorant household where sexual repression manisfests itself like a
> > disease. you are a typical case of the Indian version of american
> > nincompoop. so i sympathise you my friend.
> >
> > and perversions do exist. that 50 women since jan to june 2009 from Hindu
> > Gujarati Families were raped by brothers or fathers proves it even more
> > (says a latest TOI report) .
> >
> > -with warmest regards
> > anupam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/10/09, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Anupam
> > >
> > > With such remarks I'm sure even you would like to be one soon some day.
> > > Well, if you really want to practice Yoga, I'm sure Baba Ramdev hasn't
> > > pulled your neck towards Hardwar, you sure can do it yourself.
> Spreading
> > > imaginary rumours about Baba Ramdev would be insane of you. It
> qualifies
> > > you
> > > as a joker with no 'sense or understanding'. You have proved your
> > > disability
> > > openly on sarai today.
> > >
> > > I don't know Baba Ramdev personally. He certainly has lakhs of
> followers
> > > worldwide, your disagreeing with him won't do any harm. You may
> continue
> > to
> > > live in dreams and spread rumours and hatred. But, I know for sure how
> > rich
> > > Homosexual brats sexually abuse children in India. Its all game of
> money.
> > > Maybe you should take some inspiration form them.. isn't it ?
> > >
> > > Love
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:23 PM, anupam chakravartty <
> c.anupam at gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Aditya,
> > > >
> > > > Looks like you have not heard about the perversion of Yogis. I think
> > you
> > > > should Body as a Temple where how perverted yogis start with three
> > wives,
> > > > move on to animals, then finally with inanimate objects. this was
> > > described
> > > > by a telugu poet of 12th century about yogis and the perverse habits.
> i
> > > am
> > > > sure baba ramdev aspires to become one. kindly ask your whacko baba,
> > > which
> > > > nostril is better to snort cocaine. he will tell you all about it
> with
> > > > pranayama. patanjali yoga is to be experienced with a guru who has
> > > reached
> > > > derived siddhi and the one who is beyond all aspirations. your ideas
> of
> > > > yoga
> > > > being a desi marketable product which is being done by this ramdev
> and
> > > > bandwagon reflects what understanding you have about larger indian
> > > society.
> > > >
> > > > -regards
> > > > anupam
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 7/10/09, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > One needs to understand that it isn't just another Baba, Maulvi or
> a
> > > > > father.
> > > > > It is the larger Indian Society. One shouldn't shut their eyes to
> > this
> > > > > fact.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Moreover, the major debate is on legalization, most of the common
> > > people
> > > > > have consensus on decriminalization.
> > > > >
> > > > > @ Inder 'Converted' Salim
> > > > >
> > > > > Your immaturity again makes me laugh. May Baba Ramdev bless you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do some 'Pranayama'. It may help you. It doesn't only help Hindus.
> It
> > > > helps
> > > > > Homosexuals too. Just everybody.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope the DESI dosage helps your case.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:53 PM, vaid theite <dnyan21 at yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Afterall, question remains, how to 'convince' people like Baba
> who
> > > say
> > > > > that
> > > > > > it is not natural. I mean could be posit an argument saying
> > > > homosexuality
> > > > > is
> > > > > > natural?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In which ways, we could re-articulate history of sexual relations
> > in
> > > > > > anthropology, I think.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Counter-argument: will it be 're-articulation'?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dnyan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/10/09, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Baba Ramdev claims Yoga has a
> > > cure...
> > > > > > > To: "subhrodip sengupta" <sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in>
> > > > > > > Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > > > > Date: Friday, July 10, 2009, 1:46 AM
> > > > > > > Since people have raised the question
> > > > > > > of homosexuality not being natural, I
> > > > > > > would also like to know what is this 'natural'. In their
> > > > > > > evolution, human
> > > > > > > beings must have killed animals, and now continue to do so
> > > > > > > (though mostly in
> > > > > > > the name of poaching). Is that natural, or not?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Women would have not been subjected to marriage in very
> > > > > > > early history of
> > > > > > > existence of human beings, but now they do marry. Is that
> > > > > > > natural?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There must have been a time when it must have been decided
> > > > > > > that women have
> > > > > > > to stay in 'purdah' by someone. At that moment of time,
> > > > > > > would that have been
> > > > > > > natural?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The biggest problem is that one can't be sure whether
> > > > > > > something is natural
> > > > > > > or not. What is only natural, is change. Change has to take
> > > > > > > place with time,
> > > > > > > and changes do occur. And as for homosexuality being
> > > > > > > natural or not, if the
> > > > > > > scriptures of the 'Hindu religion' have content on it and
> > > > > > > these scriptures
> > > > > > > are quite old, then obviously by your definition, they
> > > > > > > can't be considered
> > > > > > > 'natural'.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The correct statement should be that homosexuals are in a
> > > > > > > minority in India,
> > > > > > > and it's not the mainstream practiced custom in India. That
> > > > > > > is certainly
> > > > > > > true as of now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rakesh
> > > > > > > _________________________________________
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> > > > > > > city.
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> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul
> > > > > _________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Aditya Raj Kaul
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > subscribe in the subject header.
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Aditya Raj Kaul
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Definitions belong to the
definers not to the defined.