[Reader-list] Remembering Debates on this List

Fri Jul 31 17:59:13 IST 2009

Dear Rakesh, Rashneek, Pawan,

I am glad that Pawan has posted the links to Rashneek's rebuttals to  
my postings. It has saved me (and whosoever else was interested) the  
labour of having to do so. It is good that everyone can now look at  
both sides of this debate.

May I make a suggestion.

In future, if we are to basically repeat what we have said in the  
past, - say about iconoclasm - then, this practice of posting 'past'  
links is much more preferable to basically dishing out the same  
argument again in reams of text.

It saves everyone a lot of bother, and does not subject people who  
are not necessarily interested in the monotonous repetition of the  
same arguments from having to be subjected to volumes of prejudice  
and pre-formed opinion clogging up valuable space in their mailboxes.

As for the contents of the arguments, and whose 'facts' stand the  
test of reason, evidence and textual criticism, let each 'reader'  
judge for themselves. I never make a claim to the truth, but I do  
recognize deception when I see it. i hope everyone else here does as  
well,

regards

Shuddha

I trust that everyone concerned
On 31-Jul-09, at 5:48 PM, rashneek kher wrote:

> Dear Shuddha,Rakesh and all,
>
> I am not least surprised that Shuddha did not post the rebuttals to  
> his smug annotations.Obviously he is not into the business of  
> "dishing out one sided" arguements.
> Even after the rebuttals Shuddha has the cheek to call Iconoclasm  
> as a trick just goes on to show how wedded he is to his own self's  
> aggrandisement yet does not have the courage to post rebuttals.
>
> Rakesh,I must tell you that not even one of Shuddha;s assertions  
> was correct and the piece that Pawan has posted will make it easy  
> to understand that.
>
> Live on Shuddha...
>
> Rashneek
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta  
> <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
> Dear Rakesh, dear all
>
> Rakesh, I don't know who you are, but I would like to thank you for
> the great job that you are doing in response to yet another assault
> on our reason from the same quarters. When all else fails. Our holy
> hindu warriors bring out the tired trick of the charge of iconoclasm.
> We have been here many times before.
>
> Some time ago (September -November 2007, and January 2008) this list
> went through a great deal of turbulence regarding the one sided
> dishing out of a so called history of iconoclasm in Kashmir.
>
> Since the list has a working online archive, it is quite easy to
> revisit these debates. I enclose the links below for the perusal of
> readers such as yourself, who may have joined the list, subsequent to
> these exchanges.
>
> 1. Kalhan, Parihaspura and Komal Gandhar, September 6, 2007
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-September/010200.html
>
> 2. I wrote a series of postings titled 'Annotations to the History of
> Iconoclasm in Kashmir, Parts I-IV' which appeared serially, on the
> night of Diwali, November 2007 on the Reader List. The links to them
> are as follows
>
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011030.html
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011031.html
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011032.html
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011033.html
>
> In January, in response to a rebuttal of my arguments made in the
> November four part set of postings. I wrote another post.
>
> Iconoclasm and a Quest for Hired Limousines - January 24, 2008
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-January/011873.html
>
> I am just forwarding the links to things I wrote, but many others
> participated vigourously (and in many cases perceptively,
> thoughtfully and with good deal of good humour) in these debates, as
> will be evident by following the trails of the relevant threads in
> the archives.
>
> Some of you who may be new to the list may be shocked at some of the
> distinctly xenophobic, communal and hate filled statements made by
> some list members in some of the recent postings. You may also be
> wondering why they are not taken on. Well, partly because many of us
> have done this before. And because the list has an archive, we do not
> need to do it again and again. But the list itself has a long memory.
> These statements, each one of them, have been wrestled with before.
> And the hate-mongers have never been able to answer the criticisms
> levelled at them. Hence their tactic, of repetition, exhausting,
> monotonous, boring repetition. All you need to do is to look at the
> archive.
>
> They have lost the most important social battles in this country.
> They are an exhausted, spent, defeated force. Their leadership is
> self-destructing before our very eyes. All that they have is a lot of
> time to waste on their keyboards. What they do not understand is that
> every time they make a hateful jibe, they lose more ground.
>
> But keep the good fight going, and the best way to do that is by
> talking, also, of many things other than what exercises the spent
> imaginations of the partisans of Hindutva and hardline nationalism.
>
> best
>
> Shuddha
>
>
> On 31-Jul-09, at 4:07 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote:
>
> > I think this is really getting on to too much. Just because Islamic
> > kings
> > indulged in vandalism of dubious kinds, and some men like Kasab
> > indulge in
> > unnecessary violence, Muslims all over the world, including India,
> > have been
> > tainted with choicest abuses and been described as killers,  
> murderers,
> > rapists, butchers and what not. This is wrong, and must be harshly
> > condemned.
> >
> > As for pseudo-secular politics, blame the Congress and its sister
> > organizations and political parties, not the Muslims. The Muslims
> > never
> > asked the Congress and others to appease them. They want progress
> > like other
> > human beings, not appeasement. The Muslims have not come from other
> > planets,
> > they were born on the earth like the rest of us and have same needs
> > as all
> > others.
> >
> > Moreover, who called Hindus as fanatics? I have never called one.
> > Neither
> > has the Congress called any Hindu a fanatic. This dubious sense of
> > being a
> > 'victim' being portrayed by some members of this forum is highly
> > atrocious
> > and needs to be seriously condemned, simply because all proper
> > evidence
> > points to the contrary of their accusation that Hindus are being
> > insulted,
> > deemed fools and also abused, or targeted in vicious ways.
> >
> > This seems to be the BJP line of argument always, and now it
> > continues among
> > members of the society and on this forum too: Hindus are always
> > victimized,
> > Hindus are always treated as second-class citizens, Hindus are  
> always
> > killed, Hindus lost lives, Hindus were raped, they are insulted in
> > their own
> > country...blah...blah...blah...
> >
> > Which Hindus have been brainwashed, may I know? And please think  
> about
> > issues in their context.
> >
> > I challenge all these 'victims' to try playing this 'victim' in  
> their
> > personal relations, and then see how their own family members and
> > friends
> > behave. I am 1000% sure their family members will be complaining
> > about these
> > 'eternal victims'. And yet, they keep on behaving in the same
> > manner. What
> > do these 'victims' expect me to do then?
> > _________________________________________
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>
> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> Raqs Media Collective
> shuddha at sarai.net
> www.sarai.net
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Rashneek Kher
> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com
> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com

Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net