[Reader-list] Remembering Debates on this List

Fri Jul 31 17:56:51 IST 2009

Dear all,
  one thing is for sure, the list moderators are very "secular" and
dissenter, if hindu,  (other views remain), will be thrown out like  a
dissenter in politburo, that is for sure, ofcourse with very nice reasons
and some yes posts giving assent to such action.!

Regards,

Rajen.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:48 PM, rashneek kher <rashneek at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Shuddha,Rakesh and all,
>
> I am not least surprised that Shuddha did not post the rebuttals to his
> smug
> annotations.Obviously he is not into the business of "dishing out one
> sided"
> arguements.
> Even after the rebuttals Shuddha has the cheek to call Iconoclasm as a
> trick
> just goes on to show how wedded he is to his own self's aggrandisement yet
> does not have the courage to post rebuttals.
>
> Rakesh,I must tell you that not even one of Shuddha;s assertions was
> correct
> and the piece that Pawan has posted will make it easy to understand that.
>
> Live on Shuddha...
>
> Rashneek
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net
> >wrote:
>
> > Dear Rakesh, dear all
> >
> > Rakesh, I don't know who you are, but I would like to thank you for
> > the great job that you are doing in response to yet another assault
> > on our reason from the same quarters. When all else fails. Our holy
> > hindu warriors bring out the tired trick of the charge of iconoclasm.
> > We have been here many times before.
> >
> > Some time ago (September -November 2007, and January 2008) this list
> > went through a great deal of turbulence regarding the one sided
> > dishing out of a so called history of iconoclasm in Kashmir.
> >
> > Since the list has a working online archive, it is quite easy to
> > revisit these debates. I enclose the links below for the perusal of
> > readers such as yourself, who may have joined the list, subsequent to
> > these exchanges.
> >
> > 1. Kalhan, Parihaspura and Komal Gandhar, September 6, 2007
> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-September/010200.html
> >
> > 2. I wrote a series of postings titled 'Annotations to the History of
> > Iconoclasm in Kashmir, Parts I-IV' which appeared serially, on the
> > night of Diwali, November 2007 on the Reader List. The links to them
> > are as follows
> >
> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011030.html
> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011031.html
> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011032.html
> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011033.html
> >
> > In January, in response to a rebuttal of my arguments made in the
> > November four part set of postings. I wrote another post.
> >
> > Iconoclasm and a Quest for Hired Limousines - January 24, 2008
> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-January/011873.html
> >
> > I am just forwarding the links to things I wrote, but many others
> > participated vigourously (and in many cases perceptively,
> > thoughtfully and with good deal of good humour) in these debates, as
> > will be evident by following the trails of the relevant threads in
> > the archives.
> >
> > Some of you who may be new to the list may be shocked at some of the
> > distinctly xenophobic, communal and hate filled statements made by
> > some list members in some of the recent postings. You may also be
> > wondering why they are not taken on. Well, partly because many of us
> > have done this before. And because the list has an archive, we do not
> > need to do it again and again. But the list itself has a long memory.
> > These statements, each one of them, have been wrestled with before.
> > And the hate-mongers have never been able to answer the criticisms
> > levelled at them. Hence their tactic, of repetition, exhausting,
> > monotonous, boring repetition. All you need to do is to look at the
> > archive.
> >
> > They have lost the most important social battles in this country.
> > They are an exhausted, spent, defeated force. Their leadership is
> > self-destructing before our very eyes. All that they have is a lot of
> > time to waste on their keyboards. What they do not understand is that
> > every time they make a hateful jibe, they lose more ground.
> >
> > But keep the good fight going, and the best way to do that is by
> > talking, also, of many things other than what exercises the spent
> > imaginations of the partisans of Hindutva and hardline nationalism.
> >
> > best
> >
> > Shuddha
> >
> >
> > On 31-Jul-09, at 4:07 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote:
> >
> > > I think this is really getting on to too much. Just because Islamic
> > > kings
> > > indulged in vandalism of dubious kinds, and some men like Kasab
> > > indulge in
> > > unnecessary violence, Muslims all over the world, including India,
> > > have been
> > > tainted with choicest abuses and been described as killers, murderers,
> > > rapists, butchers and what not. This is wrong, and must be harshly
> > > condemned.
> > >
> > > As for pseudo-secular politics, blame the Congress and its sister
> > > organizations and political parties, not the Muslims. The Muslims
> > > never
> > > asked the Congress and others to appease them. They want progress
> > > like other
> > > human beings, not appeasement. The Muslims have not come from other
> > > planets,
> > > they were born on the earth like the rest of us and have same needs
> > > as all
> > > others.
> > >
> > > Moreover, who called Hindus as fanatics? I have never called one.
> > > Neither
> > > has the Congress called any Hindu a fanatic. This dubious sense of
> > > being a
> > > 'victim' being portrayed by some members of this forum is highly
> > > atrocious
> > > and needs to be seriously condemned, simply because all proper
> > > evidence
> > > points to the contrary of their accusation that Hindus are being
> > > insulted,
> > > deemed fools and also abused, or targeted in vicious ways.
> > >
> > > This seems to be the BJP line of argument always, and now it
> > > continues among
> > > members of the society and on this forum too: Hindus are always
> > > victimized,
> > > Hindus are always treated as second-class citizens, Hindus are always
> > > killed, Hindus lost lives, Hindus were raped, they are insulted in
> > > their own
> > > country...blah...blah...blah...
> > >
> > > Which Hindus have been brainwashed, may I know? And please think about
> > > issues in their context.
> > >
> > > I challenge all these 'victims' to try playing this 'victim' in their
> > > personal relations, and then see how their own family members and
> > > friends
> > > behave. I am 1000% sure their family members will be complaining
> > > about these
> > > 'eternal victims'. And yet, they keep on behaving in the same
> > > manner. What
> > > do these 'victims' expect me to do then?
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
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> > > subscribe in the subject header.
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> >
> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> > Raqs Media Collective
> > shuddha at sarai.net
> > www.sarai.net
> > www.raqsmediacollective.net
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rashneek Kher
> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com
> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
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>

-- 
Rajen.