[Reader-list] Remembering Debates on this List

Fri Jul 31 17:48:12 IST 2009

Dear Shuddha,Rakesh and all,

I am not least surprised that Shuddha did not post the rebuttals to his smug
annotations.Obviously he is not into the business of "dishing out one sided"
arguements.
Even after the rebuttals Shuddha has the cheek to call Iconoclasm as a trick
just goes on to show how wedded he is to his own self's aggrandisement yet
does not have the courage to post rebuttals.

Rakesh,I must tell you that not even one of Shuddha;s assertions was correct
and the piece that Pawan has posted will make it easy to understand that.

Live on Shuddha...

Rashneek
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:

> Dear Rakesh, dear all
>
> Rakesh, I don't know who you are, but I would like to thank you for
> the great job that you are doing in response to yet another assault
> on our reason from the same quarters. When all else fails. Our holy
> hindu warriors bring out the tired trick of the charge of iconoclasm.
> We have been here many times before.
>
> Some time ago (September -November 2007, and January 2008) this list
> went through a great deal of turbulence regarding the one sided
> dishing out of a so called history of iconoclasm in Kashmir.
>
> Since the list has a working online archive, it is quite easy to
> revisit these debates. I enclose the links below for the perusal of
> readers such as yourself, who may have joined the list, subsequent to
> these exchanges.
>
> 1. Kalhan, Parihaspura and Komal Gandhar, September 6, 2007
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-September/010200.html
>
> 2. I wrote a series of postings titled 'Annotations to the History of
> Iconoclasm in Kashmir, Parts I-IV' which appeared serially, on the
> night of Diwali, November 2007 on the Reader List. The links to them
> are as follows
>
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011030.html
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011031.html
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011032.html
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011033.html
>
> In January, in response to a rebuttal of my arguments made in the
> November four part set of postings. I wrote another post.
>
> Iconoclasm and a Quest for Hired Limousines - January 24, 2008
> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-January/011873.html
>
> I am just forwarding the links to things I wrote, but many others
> participated vigourously (and in many cases perceptively,
> thoughtfully and with good deal of good humour) in these debates, as
> will be evident by following the trails of the relevant threads in
> the archives.
>
> Some of you who may be new to the list may be shocked at some of the
> distinctly xenophobic, communal and hate filled statements made by
> some list members in some of the recent postings. You may also be
> wondering why they are not taken on. Well, partly because many of us
> have done this before. And because the list has an archive, we do not
> need to do it again and again. But the list itself has a long memory.
> These statements, each one of them, have been wrestled with before.
> And the hate-mongers have never been able to answer the criticisms
> levelled at them. Hence their tactic, of repetition, exhausting,
> monotonous, boring repetition. All you need to do is to look at the
> archive.
>
> They have lost the most important social battles in this country.
> They are an exhausted, spent, defeated force. Their leadership is
> self-destructing before our very eyes. All that they have is a lot of
> time to waste on their keyboards. What they do not understand is that
> every time they make a hateful jibe, they lose more ground.
>
> But keep the good fight going, and the best way to do that is by
> talking, also, of many things other than what exercises the spent
> imaginations of the partisans of Hindutva and hardline nationalism.
>
> best
>
> Shuddha
>
>
> On 31-Jul-09, at 4:07 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote:
>
> > I think this is really getting on to too much. Just because Islamic
> > kings
> > indulged in vandalism of dubious kinds, and some men like Kasab
> > indulge in
> > unnecessary violence, Muslims all over the world, including India,
> > have been
> > tainted with choicest abuses and been described as killers, murderers,
> > rapists, butchers and what not. This is wrong, and must be harshly
> > condemned.
> >
> > As for pseudo-secular politics, blame the Congress and its sister
> > organizations and political parties, not the Muslims. The Muslims
> > never
> > asked the Congress and others to appease them. They want progress
> > like other
> > human beings, not appeasement. The Muslims have not come from other
> > planets,
> > they were born on the earth like the rest of us and have same needs
> > as all
> > others.
> >
> > Moreover, who called Hindus as fanatics? I have never called one.
> > Neither
> > has the Congress called any Hindu a fanatic. This dubious sense of
> > being a
> > 'victim' being portrayed by some members of this forum is highly
> > atrocious
> > and needs to be seriously condemned, simply because all proper
> > evidence
> > points to the contrary of their accusation that Hindus are being
> > insulted,
> > deemed fools and also abused, or targeted in vicious ways.
> >
> > This seems to be the BJP line of argument always, and now it
> > continues among
> > members of the society and on this forum too: Hindus are always
> > victimized,
> > Hindus are always treated as second-class citizens, Hindus are always
> > killed, Hindus lost lives, Hindus were raped, they are insulted in
> > their own
> > country...blah...blah...blah...
> >
> > Which Hindus have been brainwashed, may I know? And please think about
> > issues in their context.
> >
> > I challenge all these 'victims' to try playing this 'victim' in their
> > personal relations, and then see how their own family members and
> > friends
> > behave. I am 1000% sure their family members will be complaining
> > about these
> > 'eternal victims'. And yet, they keep on behaving in the same
> > manner. What
> > do these 'victims' expect me to do then?
> > _________________________________________
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>
> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> Raqs Media Collective
> shuddha at sarai.net
> www.sarai.net
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
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-- 
Rashneek Kher
http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com
http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com