[Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31stMarch

[Pawan Durani]

Dear Rakesh ,

I would request you to kindly also read what Guru Nanak Ji had said about
Babar and Ayodhya .

He was also contemporary of Babar.

That may enlighten you !

Regards

Pawan

2009/3/31 Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>

> Dear Bipin (and all)
>
> Unfortunately, I again have to put up a long mail on the points raised.
> Please bear with me for this, especially if you consider this spamming.
>
> 1) Advani's Rath Yatra: About this yatra, I mentioned it in particular
> because firstly, Advani is no great personality who did no wrongs. While
> you
> have been criticizing Mallika for being an upper class goon, the fact is
> that Advani also has done wrongs. Not for nothing is a case registered
> against him by the CBI for Babri Masjid Demolition case. Moreover, the
> Liberhan Commission is still investigating the case. And while you can
> claim
> that he is innocent until proven guilty, everybody knows what happened in
> the yatra. You can take a survey as well on this issue if you don't agree
> with me, and I would be happy to be proven wrong.
>
> Mallika doesn't have any case registered against her to the best of my
> knowledge. If you know of some case, you can please bring it to our notice.
> As far as your knowledge of riots is concerned, when his Rath Yatra passed
> through Rajasthan, there were riots in places after his yatra passed.
> Moreover, even believing your point that it was his arrest that led to
> riots, why did those riots take place outside Bihar? In particular as a
> threat to show that nobody dare arrest Advani. And as for Lalu, if Advani
> is
> right in playing Hindu vote bank up by this yatra, what wrong has Lalu done
> by playing minority vote bank politics?
>
> 2) Babri Masjid demolition: Let's look at it this way. Suppose tomorrow the
> BJP says that the place where your house was constructed had a temple long
> back, which had been destroyed. Now, they want it to be rebuild again.
> Would
> you like to leave your house?
>
> Secondly, while the Babri Masjid Action Committee may have had a part in
> communalizing the incident by refusing to hand over Babri Masjid, will we
> keep on fighting about our history all the time? Is hunger a bigger issue
> or
> Ram Mandir? And if the latter is a bigger issue, I challenge the entire
> Sangh Parivar to sit for a hunger strike till the Mandir is built.
>
> By the way you would be glad to know that the place which is today regarded
> as Ayodhya (holy place as Lord Ram was born there), is considered by
> historians to be very different from the Ayodhya as described in the
> Ramayana. Moreover, the time period when this mandir was supposedly
> destroyed, was also the period when one of the greatest bhakts of Lord Ram,
> namely Goswami Tulsidas also lived. Tulsidas has never mentioned any
> destruction of any mandir in that part of India to make a masjid, for he
> would have protested it. He could have mentioned it in his texts. Moreover,
> it has never been a part of any historical record either by Hindus or
> Muslims at that time in India. The first time it came into acknowledgement
> was under the British rule, somewhere in 1860's or 1870's. How do you know
> that a Mandir was there?
>
> As for nationalizing Muslims or making them patriotic, name one Muslim who
> is not patriotic or is not loyal to India. Enough of this rhetoric. I would
> challenge any Sarai member here to name one single Muslim of India, who is
> not loyal to this nation.
>
> I have been hearing this crap for long. There is no evidence to prove this.
> Even in the past 5 years or 6 years, no case of terrorism involving Indian
> Muslims supposedly has been proven. Inspite of all this, many continue to
> say Indian Muslims are supporters of terrorists. So please tell me who are
> the Muslims you have seen who are anti-India or pro-terrorist? Name them.
> Don't be afraid of them.
>
> 3) It's an absolutely irrational statement to believe that any government
> policy formed by a govt in the beginning of its tenure, requires 2.5/3
> years
> to be actually successful and show its' effects. The time lag after which
> any policy shows its' effects depends upon the policy and the conditions in
> which it is supposed to operate. A scheme like NREGA was successful in its
> very first year in both Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan, whereas for a thermal
> power plant to be constructed, the mininum time required for the fruition
> of
> such a scheme is about 5 years (I read this in a newspaper report, and you
> are free to challenge this. I would be happy), and in many cases, a party
> would required two terms at the centre or the provincial level to ensure
> that power projects initiated at the beginning of its first term start
> showing effects in the second term.
>
> As for Gujarat. In 2002, POTA had not become a law. It was an ordinance
> known as POTO. And yet the Akshardam attack took place. Gujarat didn't have
> any law of POTA name after 2004 when the UPA govt at centre repealed it.
> Inspite of this, 4 years were taken for Gujarat to get attacked. All this
> time, Gujarat had no special law on terror. And yet it was not attacked. If
> without any anti-terror law, Gujarat was so safe that no terror attacks
> took
> place, then what is the requirement of such a law anyway?
>
> My opposition to POTA stems from two factors. First of all, it's conviction
> rate as I have read it, is about 2-3%. This is even lower than TADA, the
> earlier anti-terror law. Secondly, it goes against basic tenets of human
> rights, and only innocents have been captured through this law. I would ask
> you again the same question as I had asked previously on this very forum:
> If
> I want to kill you at any cost and don't worry about my own death in the
> process, can POTA stop me from doing so? Or will police action in an
> effective manner stop it? Take your pick.
>
> 4) What is so wrong if something is done from the votes earning point of
> view? Is vote earning a kind of sin being committed by political parties?
> Any step being good or bad must be analyzed rationally, whether it be
> allowing a riot to take place or nationalization of banks. I don't know
> much
> about nationalization and wont' comment upon it. But I think politicians
> are
> concerned about winning votes, and if some good policy is introduced to get
> votes, there is nothing wrong in it. Examples are NREGA, RTI and Ladli
> Laxmi
> Yojana.
>
> As for intelligence failure, I can agree with you. However, intelligence is
> not the future way to solve terrorism problem. It is through creation of a
> just and humane society that we can solve terrorism.
>
> 5) You have been talking about Medha Patkar. First of all, it would be
> better for you to learn the spelling and pronounce the name properly. I
> personally respect her, and so would be many here on this forum. At least
> respect our sensibilites if not your own. After all, I dont' go around
> abusing Lord Ram and disrespecting others. And I expect the same from you
> too.
>
> Now getting out of sentimenality, since you claim Sardar Sarovar Dam
> project
> is very useful, I would like to get an answer regarding this fact I have
> heard and read. The dam was supposed to deliver water to the parched areas
> of Kutch. How many areas of Kutch has the water reached? Has it reached all
> the cities? How much area does it irrigate?
>
> This is what I got from a report on this particular dam, and I can put up
> the entire report for the benefit of all, if they want.
>
> ƒnReport shows only 15% of households in Kutch and Saurashtra getting water
> 1)Sitting BJP MP under Modi says farmers not getting water or power in
> spite
> of
> Narmada Canal going through the district
>
> 2) ƒnRenowned Ecologist says Narmada water in Rann (desert) wont work
>
> 3) Modi government busy wasting water by ¡§inter-linking¡¨ Narmada with
> mythical
> river Saraswati; a ploy to create sheer emotional appeal
>
> 4)Government leasing out land to industrialists in SSP Command
>
> 5) ƒnLarge scale water-logging in the Sardar Sarovar command area this
> monsoon,
> including Jambusar
>
> 6) Narmada main canal breaches again this year; lakhs of gallons of water
> floods
> nearby fields
>
> 7) ƒnNarmada Main Canal becoming a watery grave for many desperate indebted
> families
> as per September 2005 data. May be you should also read things on other
> side
> of the story instead of believing Modi mania all the time. Even Modi can be
> wrong.
>
> As for the power production, the less said the better. The Gujarat
> government has been giving different heights for the generation of power in
> the last 17 years, and how much power production is taking place now?
>
> For further info, read this:
>
> http://www.narmada.org/sardar-sarovar/faq/whopays.html
>
> http://www.narmada.org/sardar-sarovar/irnoverview940525.html
>
> By the way, the project was protested so vehemently that the very World
> Bank, which you claim praised the project, had stopped lending money for
> the
> project (after 92 if I am not wrong). How is that for this great project?
>
> And so many people can't be wrong, even if Medha Patkar is wrong.
>
> Better find statistics showing the increase in agricultural production,
> increase in electricity production, increase in land area irrigated and
> other relevant data due to this particular project (not total Gujarat data
> please).
>
> 6) As far as this figure is concerned. Let me just clarify something here.
> This figure had been obtained from a Jean Dreze article. However, I
> couldn't
> find that article here. Luckily, what I did get is this article on web,
> which proves my point. The link is:
>
> http://www.indiatogether.org/2006/mar/ddz-povline.htm
>
> What this says is that the poverty line was Rs. 540 (urban)as per 2004
> statistics. And this only included food expenses (not shelter or clothing
> or
> other possible emergency expenses on health). This is below Rs. 600. The
> article I read said that due to inflation, this data had changed from Rs.
> 540 to Rs. 600 as per 2007-08 statistics, which I will confirm.
>
> And Bipin jee, I don't think you have seen Lord Ram or Lord Krishna in your
> life. (not in dreams, and not Arun Govil). At least I haven't seen them.
> Many have not seen them as well. Then why do they believe these lords
> exist?
>
>
> Reality can exist even if I or you haven't seen it, provided others have.
> These statistics prove that 26% population is still below poverty line as
> per these statistics
>
> The point I feel I have put up which could be wrong is that 72% population
> is below this figure, as I can't find that article by Dreze which said that
> if the urban poverty line is taken as the poverty line even in rural areas,
> particularly as Dreze saw that the amount per day was too low in rural
> areas
> to lead a proper life. By the way, if you doubt Dreze, then better read
> about who he is and what he does before commenting.
>
> 7) By mentioning licence raj, I haven't supported it. Better come back to
> reality than imagining things which I never said. I only said it was the
> removal of licence raj which saw growth for India. I am not against growth,
> but I want that growth to be equitable as well, to which the UPA govt has
> tried to achieve this, and the BJP seems to try to do the same. But people
> like you think these subsidies are a waste of public money. Go and find out
> the amount given directly and indirectly as subsidy by Gujarat govt to
> Tatas
> or Indian govt to all large scale industries and big players. The food
> subsidy is very small compared to that.
>
> 8) Just because government companies don't work does not mean you sell
> them.
> You ensure strict implementation of rules and also introduce incentives for
> people to work, rather than selling them off to private companies. And any
> selling should be judged by rationally, not by you and me, but by
> professionals and economic specialists as well as people who can keep the
> overall objective of safeguarding national interests in mind. As for the
> PPP
> model or private ownership model, now that the economy is in a recession,
> the companies are not able to develop their own property or production
> capability, then only the govt. is left to do any economic activity. What
> should the govt do then? Not do anything and let people wither away?
>
> The govt has realized its responsibility of providing equitable growth to
> all through schemes like NREGA, and any day I would support such subsidy
> instead of giving 30,000 crores subsidy to Tatas in Gujarat by Modi and his
> dispensation.
>
> 9) I don't want any nationalism. It is crap. I want citizens to be
> patriotic. There is no need to be nationalistic. For all those who want to
> be nationalistic, let me remind them that the Nationalist Government in
> China was overthrown by the Communists after a decade of rule in 1947-49.
> And nationalism hasn't worked for BJP in getting a majority on its own in
> Indian Parliament. They had to adjust themselves with regional
> sub-nationalisms and collabarate with state based regional parties.
>
> 10) I agree terror blasts can't take place without local support. What is
> the proof that this support is given by Muslims? As for Patel's statement,
> I
> have read statements not exactly reading this, but meaning the same, in a
> couple of books. The one I remember now is Ramchandra Guha's 'India after
> Gandhi', and probably it has an incident where Patel tells someone to be
> careful about Muslims and to get information about Muslim policemen or
> something. Please check that out.
>
> 11) 'Peace loving Hinduism' is already seen by me in Babri Masjid
> demolition
> and Gujarat riots. Now I dont' want to see any more 'peace-loving Hindus'.
> It's better to see silent Hindus than these great Hindus who want to wipe
> out the very ideals of our nation on which it is based, by raping and
> molesting women, and by killing old men and children who could never harm
> Hindu religion (just because they were Muslims/Christians). I am ashamed to
> call such people as belonging to my religion. Akbar was more a Hindu than
> these genocide creators.
>
> And such Hindus would have created Hindu Pakistan long back if Nehru was
> not
> there. Nehru made many mistakes, but he ensured proper rule of democracy in
> India and also gave other achievements like proper establishments of
> institutions in India like Election Commission, Planning Commission and
> others. It was his daughter who ruined India more than them.
>
> As for Kashmir, why do you worry about referendum? If you are very sure
> Kashmiris want to be a part of India, let us have a referendum and get it
> proven. It will put our doubts to end for once and for all.
>
> 12)  If Indira can be a great leader by ruling for 17 years, then I think
> Jyoti Basu and Fidel Castro would be far greater leaders in your mind (both
> Communists) as they ruled their respective state and country (Cuba) for 25
> and (50+) years respectively. And I don't rate rulers as great based on
> that.
>
> She ruined India by emergency and her actions like Bhindranwale's creation
> which ruined Punjab and India as such. It was what led to her death as
> well.
> As for your vote bank politics, could you name the vote bank for which
> Indira Gandhi did so? We all would be very happy if you could do so. And
> please, do justify how does this vote bank get satisfied if POK is not
> taken
> from Pakistan.
>
> 13) Better be concerned with Gini inequality ratio (used by World Bank) and
> GDP per capita to look at inequality as well instead of looking only at GDP
> in totality. Today India is more unequal than it was in 1991. And this is
> wrong.
>
> 14) As far as your infrastructural development is concerned, it only helps
> the rich and not the poor. The poor want education, health, sanitation
> facilities, food, clothing and shelter. This is also infrastructure, but is
> unfortunately missing from your understanding of infrastructure. Mind you,
> they need these at low cost, not at the costs at which today middle class
> people buy their homes. And they need these from the govt. Neither you nor
> me, nor any real estate buyer or some private company is going to get these
> for them.
>
> And for implementation, you are right. One should criticize the govt if it
> is found lacking in implementation, but then the govt should provide it.
> Privatization is not the solution for it involves high costs, which these
> poor people can't pay.
>
> By the way, Raman Singh has won in Chhatisgarh on a macro level because it
> is believed his schemes of rice at Rs 3/- per kg was implemented very
> properly and efficiently. This is claimed even by NGO' s supposedly loyal
> to
> Congress. Very useful scheme for tribal people, as BJP won in tribal seats.
>
> Ab final baat hindi mein Bipin jee (because English is my brain language,
> Hindi is my heart language). Dekhiye jee. aap issues badi superficially
> dekh
> rahe hain. mai kahoonga aapse issues ki gehrai mein jaayein aur unhein
> dekhein. aap gujarat mein hain. bajay yeh kehne ke ki modi ne elections
> jeete ya woh development laaya, figures dekhiye aur constituency level par
> analyze kijiye what clicked and what not. chahiye to surveys kijiye aur
> unke
> results bataiye. i would be very happy. is tarah se macro based statements
> dene se kisi ka koi bhala nahi hoga.
>
> aur kripa karke muslims ke liye bani sachar commitee ka report zaroor
> padhiye. aapko pata chalega woh kitne poor hain. aur phir aap khud sochenge
> unhein itni gaali kyun dete hain log. aap hi khud achambhe mein rahenge
>
> Regards
>
> Rakesh
>
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