[Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31stMarch

[Rakesh Iyer]

Dear Bipin (and all)

Unfortunately, I again have to put up a long mail on the points raised.
Please bear with me for this, especially if you consider this spamming.

1) Advani's Rath Yatra: About this yatra, I mentioned it in particular
because firstly, Advani is no great personality who did no wrongs. While you
have been criticizing Mallika for being an upper class goon, the fact is
that Advani also has done wrongs. Not for nothing is a case registered
against him by the CBI for Babri Masjid Demolition case. Moreover, the
Liberhan Commission is still investigating the case. And while you can claim
that he is innocent until proven guilty, everybody knows what happened in
the yatra. You can take a survey as well on this issue if you don't agree
with me, and I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Mallika doesn't have any case registered against her to the best of my
knowledge. If you know of some case, you can please bring it to our notice.
As far as your knowledge of riots is concerned, when his Rath Yatra passed
through Rajasthan, there were riots in places after his yatra passed.
Moreover, even believing your point that it was his arrest that led to
riots, why did those riots take place outside Bihar? In particular as a
threat to show that nobody dare arrest Advani. And as for Lalu, if Advani is
right in playing Hindu vote bank up by this yatra, what wrong has Lalu done
by playing minority vote bank politics?

2) Babri Masjid demolition: Let's look at it this way. Suppose tomorrow the
BJP says that the place where your house was constructed had a temple long
back, which had been destroyed. Now, they want it to be rebuild again. Would
you like to leave your house?

Secondly, while the Babri Masjid Action Committee may have had a part in
communalizing the incident by refusing to hand over Babri Masjid, will we
keep on fighting about our history all the time? Is hunger a bigger issue or
Ram Mandir? And if the latter is a bigger issue, I challenge the entire
Sangh Parivar to sit for a hunger strike till the Mandir is built.

By the way you would be glad to know that the place which is today regarded
as Ayodhya (holy place as Lord Ram was born there), is considered by
historians to be very different from the Ayodhya as described in the
Ramayana. Moreover, the time period when this mandir was supposedly
destroyed, was also the period when one of the greatest bhakts of Lord Ram,
namely Goswami Tulsidas also lived. Tulsidas has never mentioned any
destruction of any mandir in that part of India to make a masjid, for he
would have protested it. He could have mentioned it in his texts. Moreover,
it has never been a part of any historical record either by Hindus or
Muslims at that time in India. The first time it came into acknowledgement
was under the British rule, somewhere in 1860's or 1870's. How do you know
that a Mandir was there?

As for nationalizing Muslims or making them patriotic, name one Muslim who
is not patriotic or is not loyal to India. Enough of this rhetoric. I would
challenge any Sarai member here to name one single Muslim of India, who is
not loyal to this nation.

I have been hearing this crap for long. There is no evidence to prove this.
Even in the past 5 years or 6 years, no case of terrorism involving Indian
Muslims supposedly has been proven. Inspite of all this, many continue to
say Indian Muslims are supporters of terrorists. So please tell me who are
the Muslims you have seen who are anti-India or pro-terrorist? Name them.
Don't be afraid of them.

3) It's an absolutely irrational statement to believe that any government
policy formed by a govt in the beginning of its tenure, requires 2.5/3 years
to be actually successful and show its' effects. The time lag after which
any policy shows its' effects depends upon the policy and the conditions in
which it is supposed to operate. A scheme like NREGA was successful in its
very first year in both Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan, whereas for a thermal
power plant to be constructed, the mininum time required for the fruition of
such a scheme is about 5 years (I read this in a newspaper report, and you
are free to challenge this. I would be happy), and in many cases, a party
would required two terms at the centre or the provincial level to ensure
that power projects initiated at the beginning of its first term start
showing effects in the second term.

As for Gujarat. In 2002, POTA had not become a law. It was an ordinance
known as POTO. And yet the Akshardam attack took place. Gujarat didn't have
any law of POTA name after 2004 when the UPA govt at centre repealed it.
Inspite of this, 4 years were taken for Gujarat to get attacked. All this
time, Gujarat had no special law on terror. And yet it was not attacked. If
without any anti-terror law, Gujarat was so safe that no terror attacks took
place, then what is the requirement of such a law anyway?

My opposition to POTA stems from two factors. First of all, it's conviction
rate as I have read it, is about 2-3%. This is even lower than TADA, the
earlier anti-terror law. Secondly, it goes against basic tenets of human
rights, and only innocents have been captured through this law. I would ask
you again the same question as I had asked previously on this very forum: If
I want to kill you at any cost and don't worry about my own death in the
process, can POTA stop me from doing so? Or will police action in an
effective manner stop it? Take your pick.

4) What is so wrong if something is done from the votes earning point of
view? Is vote earning a kind of sin being committed by political parties?
Any step being good or bad must be analyzed rationally, whether it be
allowing a riot to take place or nationalization of banks. I don't know much
about nationalization and wont' comment upon it. But I think politicians are
concerned about winning votes, and if some good policy is introduced to get
votes, there is nothing wrong in it. Examples are NREGA, RTI and Ladli Laxmi
Yojana.

As for intelligence failure, I can agree with you. However, intelligence is
not the future way to solve terrorism problem. It is through creation of a
just and humane society that we can solve terrorism.

5) You have been talking about Medha Patkar. First of all, it would be
better for you to learn the spelling and pronounce the name properly. I
personally respect her, and so would be many here on this forum. At least
respect our sensibilites if not your own. After all, I dont' go around
abusing Lord Ram and disrespecting others. And I expect the same from you
too.

Now getting out of sentimenality, since you claim Sardar Sarovar Dam project
is very useful, I would like to get an answer regarding this fact I have
heard and read. The dam was supposed to deliver water to the parched areas
of Kutch. How many areas of Kutch has the water reached? Has it reached all
the cities? How much area does it irrigate?

This is what I got from a report on this particular dam, and I can put up
the entire report for the benefit of all, if they want.

ƒnReport shows only 15% of households in Kutch and Saurashtra getting water
1)Sitting BJP MP under Modi says farmers not getting water or power in spite
of
Narmada Canal going through the district

2) ƒnRenowned Ecologist says Narmada water in Rann (desert) wont work

3) Modi government busy wasting water by ¡§inter-linking¡¨ Narmada with
mythical
river Saraswati; a ploy to create sheer emotional appeal

4)Government leasing out land to industrialists in SSP Command

5) ƒnLarge scale water-logging in the Sardar Sarovar command area this
monsoon,
including Jambusar

6) Narmada main canal breaches again this year; lakhs of gallons of water
floods
nearby fields

7) ƒnNarmada Main Canal becoming a watery grave for many desperate indebted
families
as per September 2005 data. May be you should also read things on other side
of the story instead of believing Modi mania all the time. Even Modi can be
wrong.

As for the power production, the less said the better. The Gujarat
government has been giving different heights for the generation of power in
the last 17 years, and how much power production is taking place now?

For further info, read this:

http://www.narmada.org/sardar-sarovar/faq/whopays.html

http://www.narmada.org/sardar-sarovar/irnoverview940525.html

By the way, the project was protested so vehemently that the very World
Bank, which you claim praised the project, had stopped lending money for the
project (after 92 if I am not wrong). How is that for this great project?

And so many people can't be wrong, even if Medha Patkar is wrong.

Better find statistics showing the increase in agricultural production,
increase in electricity production, increase in land area irrigated and
other relevant data due to this particular project (not total Gujarat data
please).

6) As far as this figure is concerned. Let me just clarify something here.
This figure had been obtained from a Jean Dreze article. However, I couldn't
find that article here. Luckily, what I did get is this article on web,
which proves my point. The link is:

http://www.indiatogether.org/2006/mar/ddz-povline.htm

What this says is that the poverty line was Rs. 540 (urban)as per 2004
statistics. And this only included food expenses (not shelter or clothing or
other possible emergency expenses on health). This is below Rs. 600. The
article I read said that due to inflation, this data had changed from Rs.
540 to Rs. 600 as per 2007-08 statistics, which I will confirm.

And Bipin jee, I don't think you have seen Lord Ram or Lord Krishna in your
life. (not in dreams, and not Arun Govil). At least I haven't seen them.
Many have not seen them as well. Then why do they believe these lords exist?


Reality can exist even if I or you haven't seen it, provided others have.
These statistics prove that 26% population is still below poverty line as
per these statistics

The point I feel I have put up which could be wrong is that 72% population
is below this figure, as I can't find that article by Dreze which said that
if the urban poverty line is taken as the poverty line even in rural areas,
particularly as Dreze saw that the amount per day was too low in rural areas
to lead a proper life. By the way, if you doubt Dreze, then better read
about who he is and what he does before commenting.

7) By mentioning licence raj, I haven't supported it. Better come back to
reality than imagining things which I never said. I only said it was the
removal of licence raj which saw growth for India. I am not against growth,
but I want that growth to be equitable as well, to which the UPA govt has
tried to achieve this, and the BJP seems to try to do the same. But people
like you think these subsidies are a waste of public money. Go and find out
the amount given directly and indirectly as subsidy by Gujarat govt to Tatas
or Indian govt to all large scale industries and big players. The food
subsidy is very small compared to that.

8) Just because government companies don't work does not mean you sell them.
You ensure strict implementation of rules and also introduce incentives for
people to work, rather than selling them off to private companies. And any
selling should be judged by rationally, not by you and me, but by
professionals and economic specialists as well as people who can keep the
overall objective of safeguarding national interests in mind. As for the PPP
model or private ownership model, now that the economy is in a recession,
the companies are not able to develop their own property or production
capability, then only the govt. is left to do any economic activity. What
should the govt do then? Not do anything and let people wither away?

The govt has realized its responsibility of providing equitable growth to
all through schemes like NREGA, and any day I would support such subsidy
instead of giving 30,000 crores subsidy to Tatas in Gujarat by Modi and his
dispensation.

9) I don't want any nationalism. It is crap. I want citizens to be
patriotic. There is no need to be nationalistic. For all those who want to
be nationalistic, let me remind them that the Nationalist Government in
China was overthrown by the Communists after a decade of rule in 1947-49.
And nationalism hasn't worked for BJP in getting a majority on its own in
Indian Parliament. They had to adjust themselves with regional
sub-nationalisms and collabarate with state based regional parties.

10) I agree terror blasts can't take place without local support. What is
the proof that this support is given by Muslims? As for Patel's statement, I
have read statements not exactly reading this, but meaning the same, in a
couple of books. The one I remember now is Ramchandra Guha's 'India after
Gandhi', and probably it has an incident where Patel tells someone to be
careful about Muslims and to get information about Muslim policemen or
something. Please check that out.

11) 'Peace loving Hinduism' is already seen by me in Babri Masjid demolition
and Gujarat riots. Now I dont' want to see any more 'peace-loving Hindus'.
It's better to see silent Hindus than these great Hindus who want to wipe
out the very ideals of our nation on which it is based, by raping and
molesting women, and by killing old men and children who could never harm
Hindu religion (just because they were Muslims/Christians). I am ashamed to
call such people as belonging to my religion. Akbar was more a Hindu than
these genocide creators.

And such Hindus would have created Hindu Pakistan long back if Nehru was not
there. Nehru made many mistakes, but he ensured proper rule of democracy in
India and also gave other achievements like proper establishments of
institutions in India like Election Commission, Planning Commission and
others. It was his daughter who ruined India more than them.

As for Kashmir, why do you worry about referendum? If you are very sure
Kashmiris want to be a part of India, let us have a referendum and get it
proven. It will put our doubts to end for once and for all.

12)  If Indira can be a great leader by ruling for 17 years, then I think
Jyoti Basu and Fidel Castro would be far greater leaders in your mind (both
Communists) as they ruled their respective state and country (Cuba) for 25
and (50+) years respectively. And I don't rate rulers as great based on
that.

She ruined India by emergency and her actions like Bhindranwale's creation
which ruined Punjab and India as such. It was what led to her death as well.
As for your vote bank politics, could you name the vote bank for which
Indira Gandhi did so? We all would be very happy if you could do so. And
please, do justify how does this vote bank get satisfied if POK is not taken
from Pakistan.

13) Better be concerned with Gini inequality ratio (used by World Bank) and
GDP per capita to look at inequality as well instead of looking only at GDP
in totality. Today India is more unequal than it was in 1991. And this is
wrong.

14) As far as your infrastructural development is concerned, it only helps
the rich and not the poor. The poor want education, health, sanitation
facilities, food, clothing and shelter. This is also infrastructure, but is
unfortunately missing from your understanding of infrastructure. Mind you,
they need these at low cost, not at the costs at which today middle class
people buy their homes. And they need these from the govt. Neither you nor
me, nor any real estate buyer or some private company is going to get these
for them.

And for implementation, you are right. One should criticize the govt if it
is found lacking in implementation, but then the govt should provide it.
Privatization is not the solution for it involves high costs, which these
poor people can't pay.

By the way, Raman Singh has won in Chhatisgarh on a macro level because it
is believed his schemes of rice at Rs 3/- per kg was implemented very
properly and efficiently. This is claimed even by NGO' s supposedly loyal to
Congress. Very useful scheme for tribal people, as BJP won in tribal seats.

Ab final baat hindi mein Bipin jee (because English is my brain language,
Hindi is my heart language). Dekhiye jee. aap issues badi superficially dekh
rahe hain. mai kahoonga aapse issues ki gehrai mein jaayein aur unhein
dekhein. aap gujarat mein hain. bajay yeh kehne ke ki modi ne elections
jeete ya woh development laaya, figures dekhiye aur constituency level par
analyze kijiye what clicked and what not. chahiye to surveys kijiye aur unke
results bataiye. i would be very happy. is tarah se macro based statements
dene se kisi ka koi bhala nahi hoga.

aur kripa karke muslims ke liye bani sachar commitee ka report zaroor
padhiye. aapko pata chalega woh kitne poor hain. aur phir aap khud sochenge
unhein itni gaali kyun dete hain log. aap hi khud achambhe mein rahenge

Regards

Rakesh