[Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims

Wed May 6 18:30:23 IST 2009

Dear Anupam

Read with interest your (in context) comments on Pakistani Flag / Assam / Media / Relief Camps / (so described by Media pundits) Bangladeshi influx / Bodo-Muslim strife (getting highlighted). Thanks. 

Yes, for the user or displayer, a flag or even a symbol might carry a particular significance. And yes, for an observer it might suggest a different signifier based on  some inference. This gap could be out of malicious intent of the observer, or a lack of understanding by the observer, or vision clouded by 'happenings'. 

There is however the adage that it is not what you say but what gets conveyed which is registered. I say that to myself too even as I remonstrate with someone that my words, attitudes, or intent have been misunderstood (different from deliberate misrepresentation). I have to be conscious of not only what I mean to convey but also what actually gets conveyed. No point in my parroting "That is not what I meant at all. That is not it at all"

It is not only with the flag that I was talking about that there can be a problem in conveyance of intent, but the Hindu Trishul (Trident) is another such example. At different points of time in an environment the very same 'symbol' might change the characteristics of the 'intended signifier'  and 'inferred signifier'.

Moving on ....

I apologise to Javed if I came across as condescending to him. He did not mention it, you have remarked so.

Frankly I was a bit irritated with his query ("Who is an India Muslim") because I was not talking about 'Indian Muslims' as a monolithic entity but """" I was talking about the flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim identity is sought to be displayed.""""" 

You ask of me "Why should Muslims be bothered about whether they are Indian or not? Why should you consciously pose such question?"

I posed no such questions so I do not know what you are referring to. I do not think the Muslims of India would take any serious note of your asking why they should be bothered whether they are Indian or not; Whatever be the body of information or whatever be your intent in posing such a question. 

You ask of me "Why should Indian Muslim always have ask questions, answer themselves?"

The answer to that is simple. Because everyone should do it. The Hindus should; The Christians should. You and I as individuals should. My answer can be only as generalised as your question since you took my words out of the context in which they were mentioned to Javed.

You ask of me "Who gave you those rights to frame your comments?"

That is a rather silly query. Whether it is me or you or anyone else, no one has to give us the right to comment or question. Can you imagine the situation if everyone asked of  everyone in this List "Who gave you those rights to comment or question". It could start with my asking you "Who gave you the right to comment or or question me about what I said". Interestingly, that would be the end of all Commentary and Opinion on News and most other non-fictional writing. 

Moving on ....

My giving an answer to the question "whether such a flag has any significant historicity that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity." is my answer. It is not and cannot be an imposition on anyone else. It does not prevent Muslims or anyoine else from answering that question for themselves. Javed gave an answer to that in his mail. It appears that he agrees with my answer.

You ask of me " Since when have you become a authority on identifying what Islamic identity is and what is not."

A misguided question from you. I made no claim to being an 'authority'. But yes I have studied (and continue to study) Islam and Islamic issues a fair bit and try to express an informed opinion. Anyone is free to correct me.

Now for your final question asking me "Do you like your community being discussed or questioned all the time?"

I do not know what you understand by my "community" but the answer is an unequivocal YES.

Kshmendra  

--- On Tue, 5/5/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:

From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 8:48 PM

Dear Kshmendra,

There is fundamental problem in the way you see a flag or even a symbol as a
signifier of something else. That something else is not pre-defined. It is
more like an inference. I might have been a little patronising while trying
to define the local cameraman’s perspective. But actually, being a media
person it is very easy for me to say: *kya chalega aur kya nahi chalega*. A
Pakistani flag in the distant Assam facing a demographical problem of
Bangladeshi influx as called by various media pundits sounds very
interesting.

The news reporter in me would not be bothered if a neighbouring ethnic
tribe’s relief camp has a flag (signifying its sub-national tendencies)
because it is commonplace to find such flags. At one point of time, these
flags were banned. My problem is even if it was Pakistani flag, it was a
relief camp (even the news channel reporting that incident admits that it
was relief camp). Naturally, there were no armed men inside it with guns but
with people who bore three or four nights violence just like their Bodo
counterparts who were also killed in it.

The way this reporter/cameraman could have brought this whole debate in this
discourse is by showing and asking consent from people that yes that’s a
Pakistani flag. But, look at the irony of this situation; the issue about
Bodo-Muslim strife was brought about in the public discourse.

And frankly, at one level you have accused of being patronising on the other
while replying to Javed, I felt you were extremely condescending. Why should
Muslims be bothered about whether they are Indian or not? Why should you
consciously pose such question? Why should Indian Muslim always have ask
questions, answer themselves? Who gave you those rights to frame your
comments? And if you have these rights, then how can you make this
statement: “whether such a flag has any significant historicity that would
make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to that question
is NO” why are you answering this question? Since when have you become a
authority on identifying what Islamic identity is and what is not.

It is shameful, that when one Sadhvi Pragya gets arrested, no one questions
the Hindus as a whole in this country but when there is a Qayamuddin, there
are people who start questioning the whole community with all sorts of
things. Do you like your community being discussed or questioned all the
time? Please answer this.

-anupam

On 5/5/09, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Javed
>
> I was talking about the flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim
> identity is sought to be displayed.
>
> Surely you are not unfamiliar with that flag. It is in green colour and
and
> has a white crescent and a white star on it.
>
> In the context of talking about 'that' flag, your question
"Who is an
> Indian Muslim" is a meaningless one.
>
> The question is whether such a flag as described by me is used by Indian
> Muslims (wherever it may be used and whosoever amongst the Indian Muslims
> may use it) and whether 'that' flag gets confused with being the
Pakistani
> flag (which it closely resembles).
>
> The answer to both those questions is YES.
>
> One other question is whether such a flag has any significant historicity
> that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to
> that question is NO.
>
> I really do not need an answer from you. These questions have to be asked
> by Indian Muslims of themselves and find their own answers. That exactly
was
> how I had framed my comments.
>
> Kshmendra
>
> --- On Tue, 5/5/09, M Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: M Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 5:38 PM
>
> Dear Kshmendra
>
> Who is an Indian Muslim?
>
> We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be
> thinking about using the Islamic flag..."
>
> Javed
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
<kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > QUOTE:
> >
> > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former
being
> the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter
> his
> military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small
> white
> and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE
> >
> > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by
> Rahimullah Yusufzai.
> > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825
> >
> > No green flag. No crescent and star on it.
> >
> > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by
Indian
> Muslims has often caused misunderstandings.
> >
> > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani
Flags
> being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken
the
> Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag.
> >
> > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even
> Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing
> it to
> be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with "
sickle
> (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol"
> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html
> >
> > In an earlier mail I had commented:
> >
> > """""" If this is factual, then the
question
> arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the
> Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to
be
> close to being the flag of Pakistan? """"""
> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html
> >
> > Just thinking aloud
> >
> > Kshmendra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________
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>
>
>
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