[Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims

Fri May 8 12:17:04 IST 2009

Dear Bipin,

forget about me apologising but this whole conversation about safdar hashmi
that has been removed, else i would have cited here what you said. let us be
clear that you never made any objection of that sort. you also wanted to
send a book by safdar hashmi to javed, which has been carefully deleted from
this thread. i have no idea who is doing this but then no apologies to you
or anyone for dragging safdar hashmi in this ugly discussion.

-anupam

On 5/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>
> Dear Anupam,
>
> I have never said anything against Safdar Hashmi, only objected for putting
> him with the list of Teestha and Arundhati that's all, if you don't
> understand this than that is your problem. Sorry to say but read before
> making any comment.
>
> thanks
> Bipin
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" <
> c.anupam at gmail.com>
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 7:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>
>
>  dear kshmendra,
>>
>> i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your
>> comments.
>> in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but yes
>> that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have
>> every
>> right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as i am
>> a
>> reader. i welcome moderator's intervention.
>>
>> besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am
>> capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things
>> against
>> safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought someone
>> could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any
>> intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can.
>>
>> with regards and apologies
>> anupam
>>
>>
>> On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>  Dear Anupam
>>>
>>> You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by my
>>> name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in such
>>> abuse. Inder elsewhere  compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as a
>>> very
>>> lighthearted comment).
>>>
>>> Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics
>>> are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator intervention
>>> can ensure that.
>>>
>>> Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's way
>>> in
>>> this public space too.
>>>
>>> Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration by
>>> me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I think
>>> you are being unreasonable.
>>>
>>> Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has
>>> started,
>>> I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by
>>> Indian
>>> Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME
>>> Indian
>>> Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction to
>>> stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns.
>>>
>>> But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own
>>> choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by
>>> Javed
>>> asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?"
>>>
>>> Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you but
>>> here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the
>>> close
>>> resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings it
>>> causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens)
>>>
>>> Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to you
>>> AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a mistake
>>> over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very
>>> interesting comments on that particular issue.
>>>
>>> This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian Muslim"
>>> might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is one
>>> which is in the public space of discourse.
>>>
>>> I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN
>>> MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - INDIAN
>>> MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS.
>>>
>>> I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in its
>>> dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type) to
>>> being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that Identity
>>> Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain
>>> references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type  might
>>> not
>>> subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that Identity
>>> Type.
>>>
>>> If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been exploited
>>> by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and practiced
>>> in
>>> the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be
>>> idiotic
>>> for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer that
>>> before we tell you whether we agree with you or not"
>>>
>>> Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent to
>>> seriously think over an issue but instead subvert.
>>>
>>> As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have stated.
>>> I
>>> have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my
>>> attitude
>>> is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are
>>> ready
>>> to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express
>>> criticism
>>> about a religion, which I do not belong to."
>>>
>>> I will not dwell on those.
>>>
>>> Kshmendra
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM
>>>
>>> Dear Kshmendra,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we
>>> discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some corner
>>> of
>>> this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, are
>>> ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having
>>> clowns
>>> as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence over
>>> the
>>> basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this country.
>>> My
>>> sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious identities.
>>> And
>>> obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is
>>> scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu identity
>>> it
>>> would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which
>>> one
>>> can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of the
>>> hardening of Muslim identity in the country.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing,
>>> questioning
>>> my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a religion,
>>> which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this
>>> majoritarian
>>> tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and
>>> mould
>>> its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to
>>> grow.
>>> When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer
>>> aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, there
>>> are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of
>>> this
>>> religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan to
>>> make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know is
>>> that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the effeminate
>>> imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma Gandhi’s
>>> Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s place
>>> of
>>> worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced
>>> conversions?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is
>>> difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and statistical
>>> problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are comfortable
>>> in
>>> the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting
>>> generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist,
>>> sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s
>>> about
>>> being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land
>>> irrespective of what colour your flag is.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anupam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________
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