[Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims

Fri May 8 13:06:37 IST 2009

  bipin    to M, sarai-list
 show details
 May 7 (20 hours ago)      What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare
Arundhati Roy, Teesta

Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu.

Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one
should respect our historian

On 5/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>
> I have not put any apology at all, since I have never tried to tarnish
> safdar hashmi image. What ever wrong belief in your mind is ur problem I ma
> least concern
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" <
> c.anupam at gmail.com>
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>
>
> Dear Bipin,
>>
>> forget about me apologising but this whole conversation about safdar
>> hashmi
>> that has been removed, else i would have cited here what you said. let us
>> be
>> clear that you never made any objection of that sort. you also wanted to
>> send a book by safdar hashmi to javed, which has been carefully deleted
>> from
>> this thread. i have no idea who is doing this but then no apologies to you
>> or anyone for dragging safdar hashmi in this ugly discussion.
>>
>> -anupam
>>
>>
>> On 5/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear Anupam,
>>>
>>> I have never said anything against Safdar Hashmi, only objected for
>>> putting
>>> him with the list of Teestha and Arundhati that's all, if you don't
>>> understand this than that is your problem. Sorry to say but read before
>>> making any comment.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Bipin
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" <
>>> c.anupam at gmail.com>
>>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 7:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>>>
>>>
>>>  dear kshmendra,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your
>>>> comments.
>>>> in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but
>>>> yes
>>>> that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have
>>>> every
>>>> right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as i
>>>> am
>>>> a
>>>> reader. i welcome moderator's intervention.
>>>>
>>>> besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am
>>>> capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things
>>>> against
>>>> safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought someone
>>>> could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any
>>>> intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can.
>>>>
>>>> with regards and apologies
>>>> anupam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  Dear Anupam
>>>>>
>>>>> You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by my
>>>>> name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in
>>>>> such
>>>>> abuse. Inder elsewhere  compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as a
>>>>> very
>>>>> lighthearted comment).
>>>>>
>>>>> Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics
>>>>> are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator
>>>>> intervention
>>>>> can ensure that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's way
>>>>> in
>>>>> this public space too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration
>>>>> by
>>>>> me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I
>>>>> think
>>>>> you are being unreasonable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has
>>>>> started,
>>>>> I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by
>>>>> Indian
>>>>> Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME
>>>>> Indian
>>>>> Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction
>>>>> to
>>>>> stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own
>>>>> choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by
>>>>> Javed
>>>>> asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you
>>>>> but
>>>>> here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the
>>>>> close
>>>>> resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings it
>>>>> causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens)
>>>>>
>>>>> Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to
>>>>> you
>>>>> AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a
>>>>> mistake
>>>>> over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very
>>>>> interesting comments on that particular issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian
>>>>> Muslim"
>>>>> might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is
>>>>> one
>>>>> which is in the public space of discourse.
>>>>>
>>>>> I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN
>>>>> MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - INDIAN
>>>>> MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in
>>>>> its
>>>>> dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type)
>>>>> to
>>>>> being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that Identity
>>>>> Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain
>>>>> references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type might
>>>>> not
>>>>> subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that
>>>>> Identity
>>>>> Type.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been
>>>>> exploited
>>>>> by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and
>>>>> practiced
>>>>> in
>>>>> the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be
>>>>> idiotic
>>>>> for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer
>>>>> that
>>>>> before we tell you whether we agree with you or not"
>>>>>
>>>>> Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent
>>>>> to
>>>>> seriously think over an issue but instead subvert.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have
>>>>> stated.
>>>>> I
>>>>> have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my
>>>>> attitude
>>>>> is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are
>>>>> ready
>>>>> to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express
>>>>> criticism
>>>>> about a religion, which I do not belong to."
>>>>>
>>>>> I will not dwell on those.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kshmendra
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>>>>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Kshmendra,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we
>>>>> discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some
>>>>> corner
>>>>> of
>>>>> this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation,
>>>>> are
>>>>> ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having
>>>>> clowns
>>>>> as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence
>>>>> over
>>>>> the
>>>>> basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this country.
>>>>> My
>>>>> sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious identities.
>>>>> And
>>>>> obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is
>>>>> scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu
>>>>> identity
>>>>> it
>>>>> would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which
>>>>> one
>>>>> can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of
>>>>> the
>>>>> hardening of Muslim identity in the country.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing,
>>>>> questioning
>>>>> my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a
>>>>> religion,
>>>>> which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this
>>>>> majoritarian
>>>>> tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and
>>>>> mould
>>>>> its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to
>>>>> grow.
>>>>> When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer
>>>>> aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship,
>>>>> there
>>>>> are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of
>>>>> this
>>>>> religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan
>>>>> to
>>>>> make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know
>>>>> is
>>>>> that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the
>>>>> effeminate
>>>>> imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma
>>>>> Gandhi’s
>>>>> Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s
>>>>> place
>>>>> of
>>>>> worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced
>>>>> conversions?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is
>>>>> difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and
>>>>> statistical
>>>>> problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are comfortable
>>>>> in
>>>>> the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting
>>>>> generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist,
>>>>> sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s
>>>>> about
>>>>> being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land
>>>>> irrespective of what colour your flag is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anupam
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________
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>
>