[Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims

anupam chakravartty c.anupam at gmail.com
Fri May 8 13:08:11 IST 2009 

so bipin..what should i make out this? what were you trying to say?

On 5/8/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   bipin    to M, sarai-list
>  show details
>  May 7 (20 hours ago)      What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to
> compare Arundhati Roy, Teesta
>
> Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu.
>
> Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one
> should respect our historian
>
>
> On 5/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>>
>> I have not put any apology at all, since I have never tried to tarnish
>> safdar hashmi image. What ever wrong belief in your mind is ur problem I ma
>> least concern
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" <
>> c.anupam at gmail.com>
>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>>
>>
>> Dear Bipin,
>>>
>>> forget about me apologising but this whole conversation about safdar
>>> hashmi
>>> that has been removed, else i would have cited here what you said. let us
>>> be
>>> clear that you never made any objection of that sort. you also wanted to
>>> send a book by safdar hashmi to javed, which has been carefully deleted
>>> from
>>> this thread. i have no idea who is doing this but then no apologies to
>>> you
>>> or anyone for dragging safdar hashmi in this ugly discussion.
>>>
>>> -anupam
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/8/09, bipin <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Anupam,
>>>>
>>>> I have never said anything against Safdar Hashmi, only objected for
>>>> putting
>>>> him with the list of Teestha and Arundhati that's all, if you don't
>>>> understand this than that is your problem. Sorry to say but read before
>>>> making any comment.
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>> Bipin
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" <
>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 7:58 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  dear kshmendra,
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your
>>>>> comments.
>>>>> in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but
>>>>> yes
>>>>> that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have
>>>>> every
>>>>> right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as i
>>>>> am
>>>>> a
>>>>> reader. i welcome moderator's intervention.
>>>>>
>>>>> besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am
>>>>> capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things
>>>>> against
>>>>> safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought someone
>>>>> could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any
>>>>> intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can.
>>>>>
>>>>> with regards and apologies
>>>>> anupam
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Dear Anupam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> abuse. Inder elsewhere  compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as a
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> lighthearted comment).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics
>>>>>> are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator
>>>>>> intervention
>>>>>> can ensure that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> this public space too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> you are being unreasonable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has
>>>>>> started,
>>>>>> I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by
>>>>>> Indian
>>>>>> Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME
>>>>>> Indian
>>>>>> Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own
>>>>>> choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by
>>>>>> Javed
>>>>>> asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the
>>>>>> close
>>>>>> resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a
>>>>>> mistake
>>>>>> over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very
>>>>>> interesting comments on that particular issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian
>>>>>> Muslim"
>>>>>> might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> which is in the public space of discourse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN
>>>>>> MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - INDIAN
>>>>>> MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type)
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that
>>>>>> Identity
>>>>>> Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain
>>>>>> references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type
>>>>>> might
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that
>>>>>> Identity
>>>>>> Type.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been
>>>>>> exploited
>>>>>> by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and
>>>>>> practiced
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be
>>>>>> idiotic
>>>>>> for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> before we tell you whether we agree with you or not"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> seriously think over an issue but instead subvert.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have
>>>>>> stated.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my
>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>> is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are
>>>>>> ready
>>>>>> to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express
>>>>>> criticism
>>>>>> about a religion, which I do not belong to."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will not dwell on those.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kshmendra
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims
>>>>>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Kshmendra,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we
>>>>>> discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some
>>>>>> corner
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation,
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having
>>>>>> clowns
>>>>>> as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence
>>>>>> over
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this
>>>>>> country.
>>>>>> My
>>>>>> sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious
>>>>>> identities.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is
>>>>>> scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu
>>>>>> identity
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> hardening of Muslim identity in the country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing,
>>>>>> questioning
>>>>>> my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a
>>>>>> religion,
>>>>>> which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this
>>>>>> majoritarian
>>>>>> tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and
>>>>>> mould
>>>>>> its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to
>>>>>> grow.
>>>>>> When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer
>>>>>> aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship,
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the
>>>>>> effeminate
>>>>>> imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma
>>>>>> Gandhi’s
>>>>>> Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s
>>>>>> place
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced
>>>>>> conversions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is
>>>>>> difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and
>>>>>> statistical
>>>>>> problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are
>>>>>> comfortable
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting
>>>>>> generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist,
>>>>>> sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land
>>>>>> irrespective of what colour your flag is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anupam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________
>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> Critiques & Collaborations
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>>
>>
>

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