[Reader-list] APJ letter

Wed May 13 15:24:42 IST 2009

Vedavati jee,

Thanks to people like you. even if farmers, diamond workers, road builders,
tribals are suffering, you expect them to pay obeisance to a flag. you
definately are a nationalist. you are jingoist, a fascist. you out there to
settle scores with anyone that goes against your ideals. shame on you and
your ideas about nationhood.

-anupam

On 5/13/09, Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Rakeshji,
>
> Firstly,
> Dr. Kalam is a great scientist and the most loved & admired president of
> India. If you feel that BJP supported him for presidentship because he is a
> Muslim then I am sorry to say so but 'You are mentally bankrupt'.  I
> remember, Sayed Shahabuddin -socalled leader of a socalled secular party had
> published an article in Indian Express stating that 'Dr. Kalam can not be
> considered as Muslim'. (Naturally because Dr. Kalam is a truely secular
> person ) Thus it can be proved that supporting Dr. Kalam can not be the act
> of Muslim appeasement.
>
> In your  mail I find many hidden examples of Muslim appeasement.
>
> e.g. You feel Terrorism can't be countered by Nationalism. Is it because
> terrorists are Muslims.? If so. then is it not an act of appeasement?
> I must say our Fauji bhai who are guarding our country for 24 hrs are fools
> because they are making supreme sacrifices for ungrateful seculars like you.
> Instead they should invite terrorists who happen to be Pakistanis (hence
> Muslims) to invade our country. What must have prompted Sandeep Unnikrishnan
> and many more to sacrifice their lives for this country? Do you think it was
> 'Internationalism?'
>
> You say, Terrorism can only be countered down at the roots. Can you
> elaborate your point? Lets take example of Kasab - why did he kill so many
> Indians? What is the root cause?
> I am sure you will give me examples of 'Ayodhya' and "Gujrat'. which
> happened in 1992 and 2002 (in which  200 Hindus have also died which you
> would like to ignore) .
> I have many times heard these secular talks that 'Ayodhya'  and 'Gujrat'
> are the reasons behind terrorism and bomb-blasts. In that case I would like
> to remind all seculars of 1000 years of Muslim rule in which crores of
> Hindus were converted forcibly,   killed, plundered...............That was
> not enough for them hence they  partitioned this ancient country in 1947,
> that time 2 crore Hindus were thrown out of  Pakistan, lakhs of Hindus were
> killed, I would not like to even mention the plight of Hindu women folks.
> If we decide to apply same 'secular' logic then don't you think these
> reasons are more than enough for Hindus to destroy whole Pakistan?
>
> Nothing can be more important than nationalism. And if Indian citizens are
> really sensible,
> then they should never vote for those parties who are ready to make any
> sort of compromise on nationalism ( ofcourse under the pretext of practising
> secularism).
>
> Vedavati
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 13/5/09, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] APJ letter
> To: "bipin" <aliens at dataone.in>
> Cc: "sarai-list" <>
> Date: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009, 3:38 PM
>
>
> Dear Bipin jee (and all)
>
> Let me clarify certain points and also add further more.
>
> First of all, sorry as I had stated that Kalam jee had chosen
> president by the BJP. Yes he is chosen by the electoral college, so I
> am sorry about that. Having said that, I can't forget the conditions
> under which the BJP decided to support him (his name was first thrown
> into the ring by the Samajwadi Party, but nobody talked about that
> when the BJP supported him). We had had Godhra and the post-Godhra
> pogrom, and a brilliant way of Muslim appeasement was practiced by the
> BJP and the then-ruling NDA by introducing his name at a time, when
> they were confused about Krishna kant and P.C.Alexander themselves.
> (And the Congress further proved it is equal to this task by
> supporting his candidature)
>
> Secondly, Bipin jee, I can understand your problem. For you, whatever
> supports your point is relevant, rest all is irrelevant. Waise if you
> felt my arguments were irrelevant, you should not have replied back at
> all. Probably it struck you too strongly. My sympathies in that case.
>
> Thirdly, unlike your belief, terrorism can't be countered with
> nationalism (it's like saying that terror can be struck with
> counter-terror, remembering Shuddha jee's post here). Terrorism can
> only be countered down at the roots. Nationalism is not what its root
> is. Israel has been trying to eradicate terrorism since the last 50
> years, without success (and Israel is more nationalistic than India).
> And now we will have the Modis and Advanis doing the same. Forget the
> root cause, you have never even spoken about reforming our police and
> judiciary and their functioning to see that at least such cases are
> solved at the earliest in a proper manner.
>
> For your kind information, Tagore jee was also against nationalism,
> and he even argued with Gandhi about it. (Gandhi had said that
> nationalism is ok if it leads to internationalism, Tagore said this is
> crap). And we all know what happened to Japan during the Second World
> War which it joined in the name of nationalism. Not going far, go and
> find about the Hirakud dam oustees who were asked to sacrifice their
> land for a 'nationalist' cause.
>
> Fourthly, I am taking this speech into consideration along with his
> previous speeches which he made as a president, when he used to say
> that India has to be turned into a developed nation by 2020. And in
> Bhopal, he even claimed we have to become a superpower (he visited
> Bhopal around Independence Day in 2002, if I am not wrong). May be
> it's not written in his speech, but looking at the kind of profession
> he was in and the goals he has stated, he believes in nationalism like
> you, and so such views are not surprising.
>
> My problem is that we all know how the US behaved as a superpower. So
> I don't wish to see India doing that.
>
> Fifthly, the US is not just a financial superpower sir. It's a
> military superpower too. No nation in the world has got the kind of
> arms, and technical superiority in defence arms which the US has,
> although other nations are trying to achieve that. It's on this basis
> that it undertook a campaign in Iraq, virtually bulldozing all
> opposition against this even in the UN. And looking at our record in
> other areas, I dont' see any reason why we would behave differently
> from them if we were in their position.
>
> Sixthly, the kind of development paradigm we are undertaking today has
> to be debated. Neither Kalam nor you have mentioned what is this
> development paradigm they believe in. If it's the current paradigm
> which has made the US developed, I am against it as it would only lead
> to destruction on a global scale involving death of millions of
> innocent people and further breeding of terrorism. Therefore, it is
> better that we first of all discuss about that rather than tripping
> over people voting on development.
>
> Seventhly, if you think people vote for development, go and find out
> what that development means for them. Probably you can also be for a
> shock, if you find that Dalits in many parts think development just
> means that no upper caste man attacks their women. They don't want
> education, health or even good roads, they just want security. And
> security in itself is development for them! So traditionally in India,
> people have voted for development and continue to do so, it's just
> that the meaning of development is different for different people.
>
> Eighth. First we should look at ourselves before pointing fingers at
> others (Said by Mahatma Gandhi, Jesus Christ, and probably so many
> others before I state this here again). The Indian state has unleashed
> injustice on so many people, be it through fake encounters, through
> prostitution, through lack of implementing prohibition, through
> improper governance and massive corruption, through schemes which
> ensured mass displacement of people without proper rehabilitation, and
> through mechanisms which ensured people didn't get justice at the
> proper place at the proper time. Moreover, people have not been able
> to lead their lives through dignity as well. What about that? Before
> looking at Taliban and Pakistan, let us look at our own state
> apparatus.
>
> Ninth. You say that it's not the state's responsibility. I believe it
> is. The Indian state destroyed mechanisms and norms which had
> developed in our villages on a self-decided basis there itself,
> regarding how are the resources to be managed and consumed, how is
> agriculture to be carried out, how will water be saved for the dry
> summer months, and so on. The Indian state penetrated each and every
> area where villages had been governed on a self-government basis, and
> now all these areas have seen no development due to massive corruption
> and centralization of powers, rather than proper decentralization.
>
> Therefore, it's not me, but the very Indian state, which has accepted
> that it's the state's responsibility to provide for its citizens. And
> when it fails, I will criticize it, whether you like it or not. If you
> think it's wrong, ask the govt. to decentralize the powers and
> functioning areas so that villages can manage themselves properly in a
> more democratic manner. Would be better for the villagers too.
>
> Moreover, even going by your logic, if industrialization, R & D
> development and infrastructure development have to be undertaken, the
> policies for these are formulated by the govt, and hence indirectly or
> directly, it's the Indian state which is responsible for the plight of
> its citizens.
>
> Sir, you have pronounced my ideas as irrelevant. I would not do that.
> I respect people's views. So, let others decide whether your ideas are
> irrelevant or not. Same for mine as well.
>
> Regards
>
> Rakesh
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