[Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK armed forces"

[Rahul Asthana]

Yasir,
Are you saying that the extremist interpretation of Islam is equally valid as the peace loving one?

Thanks
Rahul

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK armed forces"
> To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 1:51 PM
> the world has been modern for a long
> time.
> 
> this sort of statement that :: Mark that, he does not
> advise that
> involvement in wars is forbidden in Islam.  :: 
> cannot be made.
> 
> because :: there is no central authority to decide this.
> what you have is
> all historical stuff of muslim kings.why should one king,
> one person,,one
> family, one, tribe, one, language-speaker, one
> neighbor.......be like
> another muslim ??  or another conqueror. the record is
> actually is mixed but
> overall not so bad. it is even remarkable and uncomparable
> in places. so why
> not take that as a muslim characteristic ?
> 
> and why don't you. its simply the mass of bias amassing
> itself.
> 
> best
> 
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>wrote:
> 
> > Dear Anupam
> >
> > When a non-citizen comes and tells the citizens of a
> country that they
> > should not (in this case) join the Military, that is
> problematic. Moezi is
> > free to issue his advisories in his own country.
> >
> > I was quoting this an an example of why the "loyalty
> of Muslim citizens to
> > their Non-Muslim countries tends to  be viewed
> with suspicion?". Because by
> > not challenging such statements and not asking such
> persons to not interfere
> > in their lives as citizens, they get identified with
> the statements. They
> > damn well will be looked upon with suspicions about
> their loyalty to the
> > country.
> >
> > Moezi advises Muslims "that their involvement in the
> Afghanistan and Iraq
> > wars is forbidden by Islam."
> >
> > Mark that, he does not advise that involvement in wars
> is forbidden in
> > Islam.
> >
> > If you think (as you seem to suggest) that Moezi is a
> 'peacenik', shouldnt
> > he make a start with advising people in Iran not to
> join the Military in
> > Iran.
> >
> > Moezi says Muslims are not allowed to kill Muslims and
> Christians are not
> > allowed to kill Muslims. Are Muslims allowed to kill
> everyone else?
> >
> > Let us not be naive.
> >
> > """" Moezi believed that Islam and politics were
> “inter-mixed” because
> > religion “could not be ignorant of social issues.
> And part of social issues
> > is politics, therefore Islam should have some sort of
> eye on political
> > issues”. """"""
> >
> > Fair enough and valid enough for your own Islamic
> country. I doubt it that
> > it is acceptable to another Non-Islamic country.
> >
> > Islam can keep keep all the 'eye' that it wants to on
> political issues but
> > it should do so in Islamic Countries. When your loud
> pronouncements try to
> > propagate/export that aspect of Islamicness to the
> Muslim citizens of a
> > Non-Islamic country then you are creating problems for
> those Muslims.
> >
> > Kshmendra
> >
> > PS. Here is a quote from a participant in the ongoing
> congregation of
> > Muslims (Tablighi) in Raiwind, Pakistan, ranting
> against the Taliban:
> >
> > """" ‘They call those who refuse to follow their
> brand of Islam infidels,
> > not knowing they are inviting the wrath of Allah the
> almighty by killing
> > Muslims, which I call an unholy crusade, """"
> >
> > Note that. Allah's wrath is incurred if Muslim kills
> Muslim. It becomes an
> > 'unholy crusade'. What happens when Muslim kills
> Non-Muslim? What defines a
> > "holy crusade" ?
> >
> > Also note that Moezi is a Shia and the Tabhligis are
> Sunnis. Note the
> > identicality of attitudes.
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 11/16/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK
> armed forces"
> > To: "Rakesh Iyer" <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 7:21 PM
> >
> >
> > The Ayatollah's words from Daily Mail report:
> >
> >
> > “Not only do I not accept it for Muslims to go
> there, I don’t accept
> > non-Muslims to go there as well,” Moezi said. “We
> say that Muslims are
> > not allowed to go and kill Muslims. Do you think that
> Christians are
> > allowed to go and kill Muslims?”
> >
> > The cleric, 65, condemned the massacre in Texas last
> week of 13
> > American soldiers at the Fort Hood base by a Muslim
> military
> > psychiatrist and insisted that the incident should not
> be used to
> > tarnish the image of the world’s 1.5 billion Muslim
> population."
> >
> > Dear Kshmendra,
> >
> > It is very clear that the appeal is not for the
> Muslims but for anyone
> > who is opposed to the occupation of forces in these
> countries and also
> > who are opposed to things like war in any nation. I
> think I can very
> > well read it as a caution against any form of war or
> violence waged by
> > anyone. Can we not say that Daily Mail was wrong in
> interpreting what
> > this man was talking about? I am sure being a Muslim,
> and an Iranian
> > is a peril in these times. Here allegiance to a flag
> is not the issue.
> > In a phased manner thousands of young men are exposed
> to this conflict
> > of energy-terror-security. after UK and US have been
> waging this war
> > at the cost of these lives. would anyone deny the
> increasing number of
> > coffins being brought back from Iraq and Afghanistan?
> there is no
> > doubt that for a soldier a coffin of a fellow comrade
> is matter of
> > pride and motivation, but what are these soldiers
> fighting for?
> >
> > -anupam
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/16/09, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > From: Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 5:41 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Muslims must quit UK
> armed forces"
> > > To: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi (to all)
> > >
> > > Today, after a long time, am I sending one mail
> to Sarai, having read
> > some
> > > of the most shocking kind of statements,
> presented in a very dubious
> > manner
> > > or shocking ways to prove that Muslims are either
> traitors, or that they
> > > can't be loyal to anybody except to the Ummah.
> > >
> > > It is disgusting that some people have assumed
> that Muslims are loyal not
> > to
> > > their own conscience or even to the nations which
> they are citizens of,
> > but
> > > to the Ummah, Mecca or the Saudi regime, or to
> the Mullahs and Maulvis
> > who
> > > for them are more important than what the law of
> the land states. Some
> > > people on this forum, as also elsewhere across
> the nation, media and
> > among
> > > others, have thought this to be obvious.
> > >
> > > It is very wrong on any basis to make such
> conjectures and
> > perception-based
> > > statements unless one has done an academic study
> on this issue, to find
> > out
> > > the effect of what such statements do, or how
> many among the Muslims
> > across
> > > different nations, not only in India, but also in
> Europe and others, are
> > > actually involved in terrorist activities, or at
> the least, supporting
> > the
> > > ideology of terrorism or even the Al-Qaeda. I
> don't know myself about any
> > > such study having been conducted in India or any
> other nation for that
> > > matter; if any of you has anything or any study
> to prove so, please do
> > put
> > > it forward.
> > >
> > > It is also shameful that Muslims across India or
> other regions have to
> > prove
> > > their loyalty because of these shameful
> perceptions. It's on this
> > perception
> > > factor that we have a Raj Thackeray who is
> stating that UP and Bihar
> > people
> > > are actually taking over the jobs of the
> Marathis. The ironic thing is
> > that
> > > in a newspaper article I have read, the total no.
> of migrants to Mumbai
> > is
> > > actually around 45%, out of which 37.3% (the
> largest) are from within
> > > Maharashtra, followed by Uttar Pradesh (which
> when added to Maharashtra
> > > migrants come over to close to 60%) and then
> Gujarat. Where does even
> > Bihar
> > > come into the picture? And all these statistics
> are based on a UNDP-BMC
> > > survey report which has been done recently. And
> the report also says that
> > > the situation has been the same with little
> difference in composition of
> > > migrants since the 1960's.
> > >
> > > When did Muslims claim that they are loyal to
> Ayatollah Khamenei, Osama
> > Bin
> > > Laden, Hafiz Mohammed Sayeed, Syed Salahuddin,
> Tehrik-i-Taliban, or even
> > the
> > > local Mullah on the street for that matter? And
> how many Muslims even
> > made
> > > that claim? I know definitely of one Muslim
> family which always supported
> > > Pakistan in matches against India, but for that
> one family, I know of at
> > > least 5 Muslim friends of mine who had abuses to
> shower at Pakistan when
> > > India won the Twenty-20 World Cup in 2007.
> Infact, some of them even
> > claim
> > > we should nuke Pakistan. Are they loyal to
> Pakistan? (although I do agree
> > > nuking is not what we should do)
> > >
> > > When the Hindutva ideologues, be it RSS, VHP or
> anybody including the
> > Hindu
> > > Munnani say something, I don't consider it as the
> views of the Hindus.
> > Who
> > > are they to represent the Hindus? Do they even
> know what being a Hindu
> > is,
> > > or what Hinduism is? The same argument even
> extends to those who think
> > they
> > > speak on behalf of the Muslims. Do they know what
> Islam is? Have they
> > even
> > > studied the Koran properly, and do understand in
> what context what has
> > been
> > > said? Every person has the right to speak for
> himself/herself.
> > >
> > > Hence stop questioning the Muslims. Or even
> Hindus. Or Marathis. Or
> > others.
> > > If you want to question someone for his/her
> beliefs, don't ask questions
> > to
> > > anyone else but that person alone. Neither assume
> that somebody has got
> > the
> > > right to speak on behalf of others. One Deoband
> conference doesn't have
> > the
> > > right to speak for Muslims across India, forget
> across even entire
> > > South-Asian region.
> > >
> > >
> > > As far as the content of the previous mail is
> concerned, I think there
> > are
> > > positives to be taken, many of them. We should
> respect those. At the same
> > > time, the representative has a right to request
> Muslims not to join the
> > > forces, and his perspective is skewed, fine. That
> doesn't mean Muslims
> > will,
> > > by default, accept it. Muslims don't have to.
> It's their right to accept
> > or
> > > not accept, this skewed perspective. What we have
> a right to do, is to
> > > explain to them why this perspective is skewed or
> not, depending on our
> > > value system and judgement.
> > >
> > > Don't just assume please, that Muslims are
> traitors or not traitors. Each
> > > individual is different, please go ahead and
> respect their individuality.
> > >
> > > Rakesh
> > > _________________________________________
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> >
> >
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> city.
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