[Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK armed forces"

[yasir ~يا سر]

Dear Rahul

I dont know how you inferred that, or from where. but taking yr question as
it is:

I am not at all saying that the first is a valid interpretation.
but i cannot deny that there are (and have been) people who think it is a
valid interpretation throughout history. so it is also an internal perrenial
problem to be dealt with without at all compromising on the valid views. not
unlike a continuous movement or revolution. thats there too.

so I am saying some revivalists are plain wrong and wrong-headed

best



On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Yasir,
> Are you saying that the extremist interpretation of Islam is equally valid
> as the peace loving one?
>
> Thanks
> Rahul
>
> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK armed forces"
> > To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 1:51 PM
> > the world has been modern for a long
> > time.
> >
> > this sort of statement that :: Mark that, he does not
> > advise that
> > involvement in wars is forbidden in Islam.  ::
> > cannot be made.
> >
> > because :: there is no central authority to decide this.
> > what you have is
> > all historical stuff of muslim kings.why should one king,
> > one person,,one
> > family, one, tribe, one, language-speaker, one
> > neighbor.......be like
> > another muslim ??  or another conqueror. the record is
> > actually is mixed but
> > overall not so bad. it is even remarkable and uncomparable
> > in places. so why
> > not take that as a muslim characteristic ?
> >
> > and why don't you. its simply the mass of bias amassing
> > itself.
> >
> > best
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Anupam
> > >
> > > When a non-citizen comes and tells the citizens of a
> > country that they
> > > should not (in this case) join the Military, that is
> > problematic. Moezi is
> > > free to issue his advisories in his own country.
> > >
> > > I was quoting this an an example of why the "loyalty
> > of Muslim citizens to
> > > their Non-Muslim countries tends to  be viewed
> > with suspicion?". Because by
> > > not challenging such statements and not asking such
> > persons to not interfere
> > > in their lives as citizens, they get identified with
> > the statements. They
> > > damn well will be looked upon with suspicions about
> > their loyalty to the
> > > country.
> > >
> > > Moezi advises Muslims "that their involvement in the
> > Afghanistan and Iraq
> > > wars is forbidden by Islam."
> > >
> > > Mark that, he does not advise that involvement in wars
> > is forbidden in
> > > Islam.
> > >
> > > If you think (as you seem to suggest) that Moezi is a
> > 'peacenik', shouldnt
> > > he make a start with advising people in Iran not to
> > join the Military in
> > > Iran.
> > >
> > > Moezi says Muslims are not allowed to kill Muslims and
> > Christians are not
> > > allowed to kill Muslims. Are Muslims allowed to kill
> > everyone else?
> > >
> > > Let us not be naive.
> > >
> > > """" Moezi believed that Islam and politics were
> > “inter-mixed” because
> > > religion “could not be ignorant of social issues.
> > And part of social issues
> > > is politics, therefore Islam should have some sort of
> > eye on political
> > > issues”. """"""
> > >
> > > Fair enough and valid enough for your own Islamic
> > country. I doubt it that
> > > it is acceptable to another Non-Islamic country.
> > >
> > > Islam can keep keep all the 'eye' that it wants to on
> > political issues but
> > > it should do so in Islamic Countries. When your loud
> > pronouncements try to
> > > propagate/export that aspect of Islamicness to the
> > Muslim citizens of a
> > > Non-Islamic country then you are creating problems for
> > those Muslims.
> > >
> > > Kshmendra
> > >
> > > PS. Here is a quote from a participant in the ongoing
> > congregation of
> > > Muslims (Tablighi) in Raiwind, Pakistan, ranting
> > against the Taliban:
> > >
> > > """" ‘They call those who refuse to follow their
> > brand of Islam infidels,
> > > not knowing they are inviting the wrath of Allah the
> > almighty by killing
> > > Muslims, which I call an unholy crusade, """"
> > >
> > > Note that. Allah's wrath is incurred if Muslim kills
> > Muslim. It becomes an
> > > 'unholy crusade'. What happens when Muslim kills
> > Non-Muslim? What defines a
> > > "holy crusade" ?
> > >
> > > Also note that Moezi is a Shia and the Tabhligis are
> > Sunnis. Note the
> > > identicality of attitudes.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 11/16/09, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK
> > armed forces"
> > > To: "Rakesh Iyer" <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 7:21 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > The Ayatollah's words from Daily Mail report:
> > >
> > >
> > > “Not only do I not accept it for Muslims to go
> > there, I don’t accept
> > > non-Muslims to go there as well,” Moezi said. “We
> > say that Muslims are
> > > not allowed to go and kill Muslims. Do you think that
> > Christians are
> > > allowed to go and kill Muslims?”
> > >
> > > The cleric, 65, condemned the massacre in Texas last
> > week of 13
> > > American soldiers at the Fort Hood base by a Muslim
> > military
> > > psychiatrist and insisted that the incident should not
> > be used to
> > > tarnish the image of the world’s 1.5 billion Muslim
> > population."
> > >
> > > Dear Kshmendra,
> > >
> > > It is very clear that the appeal is not for the
> > Muslims but for anyone
> > > who is opposed to the occupation of forces in these
> > countries and also
> > > who are opposed to things like war in any nation. I
> > think I can very
> > > well read it as a caution against any form of war or
> > violence waged by
> > > anyone. Can we not say that Daily Mail was wrong in
> > interpreting what
> > > this man was talking about? I am sure being a Muslim,
> > and an Iranian
> > > is a peril in these times. Here allegiance to a flag
> > is not the issue.
> > > In a phased manner thousands of young men are exposed
> > to this conflict
> > > of energy-terror-security. after UK and US have been
> > waging this war
> > > at the cost of these lives. would anyone deny the
> > increasing number of
> > > coffins being brought back from Iraq and Afghanistan?
> > there is no
> > > doubt that for a soldier a coffin of a fellow comrade
> > is matter of
> > > pride and motivation, but what are these soldiers
> > fighting for?
> > >
> > > -anupam
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/16/09, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > From: Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 5:41 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Muslims must quit UK
> > armed forces"
> > > > To: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi (to all)
> > > >
> > > > Today, after a long time, am I sending one mail
> > to Sarai, having read
> > > some
> > > > of the most shocking kind of statements,
> > presented in a very dubious
> > > manner
> > > > or shocking ways to prove that Muslims are either
> > traitors, or that they
> > > > can't be loyal to anybody except to the Ummah.
> > > >
> > > > It is disgusting that some people have assumed
> > that Muslims are loyal not
> > > to
> > > > their own conscience or even to the nations which
> > they are citizens of,
> > > but
> > > > to the Ummah, Mecca or the Saudi regime, or to
> > the Mullahs and Maulvis
> > > who
> > > > for them are more important than what the law of
> > the land states. Some
> > > > people on this forum, as also elsewhere across
> > the nation, media and
> > > among
> > > > others, have thought this to be obvious.
> > > >
> > > > It is very wrong on any basis to make such
> > conjectures and
> > > perception-based
> > > > statements unless one has done an academic study
> > on this issue, to find
> > > out
> > > > the effect of what such statements do, or how
> > many among the Muslims
> > > across
> > > > different nations, not only in India, but also in
> > Europe and others, are
> > > > actually involved in terrorist activities, or at
> > the least, supporting
> > > the
> > > > ideology of terrorism or even the Al-Qaeda. I
> > don't know myself about any
> > > > such study having been conducted in India or any
> > other nation for that
> > > > matter; if any of you has anything or any study
> > to prove so, please do
> > > put
> > > > it forward.
> > > >
> > > > It is also shameful that Muslims across India or
> > other regions have to
> > > prove
> > > > their loyalty because of these shameful
> > perceptions. It's on this
> > > perception
> > > > factor that we have a Raj Thackeray who is
> > stating that UP and Bihar
> > > people
> > > > are actually taking over the jobs of the
> > Marathis. The ironic thing is
> > > that
> > > > in a newspaper article I have read, the total no.
> > of migrants to Mumbai
> > > is
> > > > actually around 45%, out of which 37.3% (the
> > largest) are from within
> > > > Maharashtra, followed by Uttar Pradesh (which
> > when added to Maharashtra
> > > > migrants come over to close to 60%) and then
> > Gujarat. Where does even
> > > Bihar
> > > > come into the picture? And all these statistics
> > are based on a UNDP-BMC
> > > > survey report which has been done recently. And
> > the report also says that
> > > > the situation has been the same with little
> > difference in composition of
> > > > migrants since the 1960's.
> > > >
> > > > When did Muslims claim that they are loyal to
> > Ayatollah Khamenei, Osama
> > > Bin
> > > > Laden, Hafiz Mohammed Sayeed, Syed Salahuddin,
> > Tehrik-i-Taliban, or even
> > > the
> > > > local Mullah on the street for that matter? And
> > how many Muslims even
> > > made
> > > > that claim? I know definitely of one Muslim
> > family which always supported
> > > > Pakistan in matches against India, but for that
> > one family, I know of at
> > > > least 5 Muslim friends of mine who had abuses to
> > shower at Pakistan when
> > > > India won the Twenty-20 World Cup in 2007.
> > Infact, some of them even
> > > claim
> > > > we should nuke Pakistan. Are they loyal to
> > Pakistan? (although I do agree
> > > > nuking is not what we should do)
> > > >
> > > > When the Hindutva ideologues, be it RSS, VHP or
> > anybody including the
> > > Hindu
> > > > Munnani say something, I don't consider it as the
> > views of the Hindus.
> > > Who
> > > > are they to represent the Hindus? Do they even
> > know what being a Hindu
> > > is,
> > > > or what Hinduism is? The same argument even
> > extends to those who think
> > > they
> > > > speak on behalf of the Muslims. Do they know what
> > Islam is? Have they
> > > even
> > > > studied the Koran properly, and do understand in
> > what context what has
> > > been
> > > > said? Every person has the right to speak for
> > himself/herself.
> > > >
> > > > Hence stop questioning the Muslims. Or even
> > Hindus. Or Marathis. Or
> > > others.
> > > > If you want to question someone for his/her
> > beliefs, don't ask questions
> > > to
> > > > anyone else but that person alone. Neither assume
> > that somebody has got
> > > the
> > > > right to speak on behalf of others. One Deoband
> > conference doesn't have
> > > the
> > > > right to speak for Muslims across India, forget
> > across even entire
> > > > South-Asian region.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As far as the content of the previous mail is
> > concerned, I think there
> > > are
> > > > positives to be taken, many of them. We should
> > respect those. At the same
> > > > time, the representative has a right to request
> > Muslims not to join the
> > > > forces, and his perspective is skewed, fine. That
> > doesn't mean Muslims
> > > will,
> > > > by default, accept it. Muslims don't have to.
> > It's their right to accept
> > > or
> > > > not accept, this skewed perspective. What we have
> > a right to do, is to
> > > > explain to them why this perspective is skewed or
> > not, depending on our
> > > > value system and judgement.
> > > >
> > > > Don't just assume please, that Muslims are
> > traitors or not traitors. Each
> > > > individual is different, please go ahead and
> > respect their individuality.
> > > >
> > > > Rakesh
> > > > _________________________________________
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