[Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK armed forces"

Rahul Asthana rahul_capri at yahoo.com
Sun Nov 22 06:31:49 IST 2009 

Hi Yasir,
Sorry if I misrepresented your position.My point is, in the absence of any central authority,any version cannot be effectively discredited. The powers that be can twist it to suit their needs;for eg. like what happened in Pak during Bhutto's and then in Zia's regime.
You are taking an empirical view;which can be of archival importance but it doesn't have any prescriptive authority.It appears to me that the debate about real nature of Islam is ,for all practical purposes,academic.

Thanks
Rahul

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK armed forces"
> To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 12:51 PM
> Dear Rahul
> 
> I dont know how you inferred that, or from where. but
> taking yr question as
> it is:
> 
> I am not at all saying that the first is a valid
> interpretation.
> but i cannot deny that there are (and have been) people who
> think it is a
> valid interpretation throughout history. so it is also an
> internal perrenial
> problem to be dealt with without at all compromising on the
> valid views. not
> unlike a continuous movement or revolution. thats there
> too.
> 
> so I am saying some revivalists are plain wrong and
> wrong-headed
> 
> best
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>wrote:
> 
> > Yasir,
> > Are you saying that the extremist interpretation of
> Islam is equally valid
> > as the peace loving one?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Rahul
> >
> > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must
> quit UK armed forces"
> > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 1:51 PM
> > > the world has been modern for a long
> > > time.
> > >
> > > this sort of statement that :: Mark that, he does
> not
> > > advise that
> > > involvement in wars is forbidden in Islam. 
> ::
> > > cannot be made.
> > >
> > > because :: there is no central authority to
> decide this.
> > > what you have is
> > > all historical stuff of muslim kings.why should
> one king,
> > > one person,,one
> > > family, one, tribe, one, language-speaker, one
> > > neighbor.......be like
> > > another muslim ??  or another conqueror. the
> record is
> > > actually is mixed but
> > > overall not so bad. it is even remarkable and
> uncomparable
> > > in places. so why
> > > not take that as a muslim characteristic ?
> > >
> > > and why don't you. its simply the mass of bias
> amassing
> > > itself.
> > >
> > > best
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Anupam
> > > >
> > > > When a non-citizen comes and tells the
> citizens of a
> > > country that they
> > > > should not (in this case) join the Military,
> that is
> > > problematic. Moezi is
> > > > free to issue his advisories in his own
> country.
> > > >
> > > > I was quoting this an an example of why the
> "loyalty
> > > of Muslim citizens to
> > > > their Non-Muslim countries tends to  be
> viewed
> > > with suspicion?". Because by
> > > > not challenging such statements and not
> asking such
> > > persons to not interfere
> > > > in their lives as citizens, they get
> identified with
> > > the statements. They
> > > > damn well will be looked upon with
> suspicions about
> > > their loyalty to the
> > > > country.
> > > >
> > > > Moezi advises Muslims "that their
> involvement in the
> > > Afghanistan and Iraq
> > > > wars is forbidden by Islam."
> > > >
> > > > Mark that, he does not advise that
> involvement in wars
> > > is forbidden in
> > > > Islam.
> > > >
> > > > If you think (as you seem to suggest) that
> Moezi is a
> > > 'peacenik', shouldnt
> > > > he make a start with advising people in Iran
> not to
> > > join the Military in
> > > > Iran.
> > > >
> > > > Moezi says Muslims are not allowed to kill
> Muslims and
> > > Christians are not
> > > > allowed to kill Muslims. Are Muslims allowed
> to kill
> > > everyone else?
> > > >
> > > > Let us not be naive.
> > > >
> > > > """" Moezi believed that Islam and politics
> were
> > > “inter-mixed” because
> > > > religion “could not be ignorant of social
> issues.
> > > And part of social issues
> > > > is politics, therefore Islam should have
> some sort of
> > > eye on political
> > > > issues”. """"""
> > > >
> > > > Fair enough and valid enough for your own
> Islamic
> > > country. I doubt it that
> > > > it is acceptable to another Non-Islamic
> country.
> > > >
> > > > Islam can keep keep all the 'eye' that it
> wants to on
> > > political issues but
> > > > it should do so in Islamic Countries. When
> your loud
> > > pronouncements try to
> > > > propagate/export that aspect of Islamicness
> to the
> > > Muslim citizens of a
> > > > Non-Islamic country then you are creating
> problems for
> > > those Muslims.
> > > >
> > > > Kshmendra
> > > >
> > > > PS. Here is a quote from a participant in
> the ongoing
> > > congregation of
> > > > Muslims (Tablighi) in Raiwind, Pakistan,
> ranting
> > > against the Taliban:
> > > >
> > > > """" ‘They call those who refuse to follow
> their
> > > brand of Islam infidels,
> > > > not knowing they are inviting the wrath of
> Allah the
> > > almighty by killing
> > > > Muslims, which I call an unholy crusade,
> """"
> > > >
> > > > Note that. Allah's wrath is incurred if
> Muslim kills
> > > Muslim. It becomes an
> > > > 'unholy crusade'. What happens when Muslim
> kills
> > > Non-Muslim? What defines a
> > > > "holy crusade" ?
> > > >
> > > > Also note that Moezi is a Shia and the
> Tabhligis are
> > > Sunnis. Note the
> > > > identicality of attitudes.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Mon, 11/16/09, anupam chakravartty
> <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims
> must quit UK
> > > armed forces"
> > > > To: "Rakesh Iyer" <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 7:21 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Ayatollah's words from Daily Mail
> report:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > “Not only do I not accept it for Muslims
> to go
> > > there, I don’t accept
> > > > non-Muslims to go there as well,” Moezi
> said. “We
> > > say that Muslims are
> > > > not allowed to go and kill Muslims. Do you
> think that
> > > Christians are
> > > > allowed to go and kill Muslims?”
> > > >
> > > > The cleric, 65, condemned the massacre in
> Texas last
> > > week of 13
> > > > American soldiers at the Fort Hood base by a
> Muslim
> > > military
> > > > psychiatrist and insisted that the incident
> should not
> > > be used to
> > > > tarnish the image of the world’s 1.5
> billion Muslim
> > > population."
> > > >
> > > > Dear Kshmendra,
> > > >
> > > > It is very clear that the appeal is not for
> the
> > > Muslims but for anyone
> > > > who is opposed to the occupation of forces
> in these
> > > countries and also
> > > > who are opposed to things like war in any
> nation. I
> > > think I can very
> > > > well read it as a caution against any form
> of war or
> > > violence waged by
> > > > anyone. Can we not say that Daily Mail was
> wrong in
> > > interpreting what
> > > > this man was talking about? I am sure being
> a Muslim,
> > > and an Iranian
> > > > is a peril in these times. Here allegiance
> to a flag
> > > is not the issue.
> > > > In a phased manner thousands of young men
> are exposed
> > > to this conflict
> > > > of energy-terror-security. after UK and US
> have been
> > > waging this war
> > > > at the cost of these lives. would anyone
> deny the
> > > increasing number of
> > > > coffins being brought back from Iraq and
> Afghanistan?
> > > there is no
> > > > doubt that for a soldier a coffin of a
> fellow comrade
> > > is matter of
> > > > pride and motivation, but what are these
> soldiers
> > > fighting for?
> > > >
> > > > -anupam
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 11/16/09, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message
> ----------
> > > > > From: Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > > Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 5:41 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Muslims
> must quit UK
> > > armed forces"
> > > > > To: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi (to all)
> > > > >
> > > > > Today, after a long time, am I sending
> one mail
> > > to Sarai, having read
> > > > some
> > > > > of the most shocking kind of
> statements,
> > > presented in a very dubious
> > > > manner
> > > > > or shocking ways to prove that Muslims
> are either
> > > traitors, or that they
> > > > > can't be loyal to anybody except to the
> Ummah.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is disgusting that some people have
> assumed
> > > that Muslims are loyal not
> > > > to
> > > > > their own conscience or even to the
> nations which
> > > they are citizens of,
> > > > but
> > > > > to the Ummah, Mecca or the Saudi
> regime, or to
> > > the Mullahs and Maulvis
> > > > who
> > > > > for them are more important than what
> the law of
> > > the land states. Some
> > > > > people on this forum, as also elsewhere
> across
> > > the nation, media and
> > > > among
> > > > > others, have thought this to be
> obvious.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is very wrong on any basis to make
> such
> > > conjectures and
> > > > perception-based
> > > > > statements unless one has done an
> academic study
> > > on this issue, to find
> > > > out
> > > > > the effect of what such statements do,
> or how
> > > many among the Muslims
> > > > across
> > > > > different nations, not only in India,
> but also in
> > > Europe and others, are
> > > > > actually involved in terrorist
> activities, or at
> > > the least, supporting
> > > > the
> > > > > ideology of terrorism or even the
> Al-Qaeda. I
> > > don't know myself about any
> > > > > such study having been conducted in
> India or any
> > > other nation for that
> > > > > matter; if any of you has anything or
> any study
> > > to prove so, please do
> > > > put
> > > > > it forward.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is also shameful that Muslims across
> India or
> > > other regions have to
> > > > prove
> > > > > their loyalty because of these
> shameful
> > > perceptions. It's on this
> > > > perception
> > > > > factor that we have a Raj Thackeray who
> is
> > > stating that UP and Bihar
> > > > people
> > > > > are actually taking over the jobs of
> the
> > > Marathis. The ironic thing is
> > > > that
> > > > > in a newspaper article I have read, the
> total no.
> > > of migrants to Mumbai
> > > > is
> > > > > actually around 45%, out of which 37.3%
> (the
> > > largest) are from within
> > > > > Maharashtra, followed by Uttar Pradesh
> (which
> > > when added to Maharashtra
> > > > > migrants come over to close to 60%) and
> then
> > > Gujarat. Where does even
> > > > Bihar
> > > > > come into the picture? And all these
> statistics
> > > are based on a UNDP-BMC
> > > > > survey report which has been done
> recently. And
> > > the report also says that
> > > > > the situation has been the same with
> little
> > > difference in composition of
> > > > > migrants since the 1960's.
> > > > >
> > > > > When did Muslims claim that they are
> loyal to
> > > Ayatollah Khamenei, Osama
> > > > Bin
> > > > > Laden, Hafiz Mohammed Sayeed, Syed
> Salahuddin,
> > > Tehrik-i-Taliban, or even
> > > > the
> > > > > local Mullah on the street for that
> matter? And
> > > how many Muslims even
> > > > made
> > > > > that claim? I know definitely of one
> Muslim
> > > family which always supported
> > > > > Pakistan in matches against India, but
> for that
> > > one family, I know of at
> > > > > least 5 Muslim friends of mine who had
> abuses to
> > > shower at Pakistan when
> > > > > India won the Twenty-20 World Cup in
> 2007.
> > > Infact, some of them even
> > > > claim
> > > > > we should nuke Pakistan. Are they loyal
> to
> > > Pakistan? (although I do agree
> > > > > nuking is not what we should do)
> > > > >
> > > > > When the Hindutva ideologues, be it
> RSS, VHP or
> > > anybody including the
> > > > Hindu
> > > > > Munnani say something, I don't consider
> it as the
> > > views of the Hindus.
> > > > Who
> > > > > are they to represent the Hindus? Do
> they even
> > > know what being a Hindu
> > > > is,
> > > > > or what Hinduism is? The same argument
> even
> > > extends to those who think
> > > > they
> > > > > speak on behalf of the Muslims. Do they
> know what
> > > Islam is? Have they
> > > > even
> > > > > studied the Koran properly, and do
> understand in
> > > what context what has
> > > > been
> > > > > said? Every person has the right to
> speak for
> > > himself/herself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hence stop questioning the Muslims. Or
> even
> > > Hindus. Or Marathis. Or
> > > > others.
> > > > > If you want to question someone for
> his/her
> > > beliefs, don't ask questions
> > > > to
> > > > > anyone else but that person alone.
> Neither assume
> > > that somebody has got
> > > > the
> > > > > right to speak on behalf of others. One
> Deoband
> > > conference doesn't have
> > > > the
> > > > > right to speak for Muslims across
> India, forget
> > > across even entire
> > > > > South-Asian region.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as the content of the previous
> mail is
> > > concerned, I think there
> > > > are
> > > > > positives to be taken, many of them. We
> should
> > > respect those. At the same
> > > > > time, the representative has a right to
> request
> > > Muslims not to join the
> > > > > forces, and his perspective is skewed,
> fine. That
> > > doesn't mean Muslims
> > > > will,
> > > > > by default, accept it. Muslims don't
> have to.
> > > It's their right to accept
> > > > or
> > > > > not accept, this skewed perspective.
> What we have
> > > a right to do, is to
> > > > > explain to them why this perspective is
> skewed or
> > > not, depending on our
> > > > > value system and judgement.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't just assume please, that Muslims
> are
> > > traitors or not traitors. Each
> > > > > individual is different, please go
> ahead and
> > > respect their individuality.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rakesh
> > > > >
> _________________________________________
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