[Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK armed forces"

Rahul Asthana rahul_capri at yahoo.com
Tue Nov 24 08:02:03 IST 2009 

Hi Yasir,
Sorry if I misrepresented your position.My point is, in the
absence of any central authority,any version cannot be
effectively discredited. The powers that be can twist it to
suit their needs;for eg. like what happened in Pak during
Bhutto's and then in Zia's regime.
You are taking an empirical view;which can be of archival
importance but it doesn't have any prescriptive authority.It
appears to me that the debate about real nature of Islam is
,for all practical purposes,academic.
 
 Thanks
 Rahul
 
 --- On Thu, 11/19/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims must quit UK
> armed forces"
> > To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 12:51 PM
> > Dear Rahul
> > 
> > I dont know how you inferred that, or from where. but
> > taking yr question as
> > it is:
> > 
> > I am not at all saying that the first is a valid
> > interpretation.
> > but i cannot deny that there are (and have been)
> people who
> > think it is a
> > valid interpretation throughout history. so it is also
> an
> > internal perrenial
> > problem to be dealt with without at all compromising
> on the
> > valid views. not
> > unlike a continuous movement or revolution. thats
> there
> > too.
> > 
> > so I am saying some revivalists are plain wrong and
> > wrong-headed
> > 
> > best
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>wrote:
> > 
> > > Yasir,
> > > Are you saying that the extremist interpretation
> of
> > Islam is equally valid
> > > as the peace loving one?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rahul
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Muslims
> must
> > quit UK armed forces"
> > > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 1:51 PM
> > > > the world has been modern for a long
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > this sort of statement that :: Mark that, he
> does
> > not
> > > > advise that
> > > > involvement in wars is forbidden in
> Islam. 
> > ::
> > > > cannot be made.
> > > >
> > > > because :: there is no central authority to
> > decide this.
> > > > what you have is
> > > > all historical stuff of muslim kings.why
> should
> > one king,
> > > > one person,,one
> > > > family, one, tribe, one, language-speaker,
> one
> > > > neighbor.......be like
> > > > another muslim ??  or another conqueror.
> the
> > record is
> > > > actually is mixed but
> > > > overall not so bad. it is even remarkable
> and
> > uncomparable
> > > > in places. so why
> > > > not take that as a muslim characteristic ?
> > > >
> > > > and why don't you. its simply the mass of
> bias
> > amassing
> > > > itself.
> > > >
> > > > best
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Kshmendra
> Kaul
> > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Anupam
> > > > >
> > > > > When a non-citizen comes and tells the
> > citizens of a
> > > > country that they
> > > > > should not (in this case) join the
> Military,
> > that is
> > > > problematic. Moezi is
> > > > > free to issue his advisories in his
> own
> > country.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was quoting this an an example of why
> the
> > "loyalty
> > > > of Muslim citizens to
> > > > > their Non-Muslim countries tends to 
> be
> > viewed
> > > > with suspicion?". Because by
> > > > > not challenging such statements and
> not
> > asking such
> > > > persons to not interfere
> > > > > in their lives as citizens, they get
> > identified with
> > > > the statements. They
> > > > > damn well will be looked upon with
> > suspicions about
> > > > their loyalty to the
> > > > > country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Moezi advises Muslims "that their
> > involvement in the
> > > > Afghanistan and Iraq
> > > > > wars is forbidden by Islam."
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark that, he does not advise that
> > involvement in wars
> > > > is forbidden in
> > > > > Islam.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you think (as you seem to suggest)
> that
> > Moezi is a
> > > > 'peacenik', shouldnt
> > > > > he make a start with advising people in
> Iran
> > not to
> > > > join the Military in
> > > > > Iran.
> > > > >
> > > > > Moezi says Muslims are not allowed to
> kill
> > Muslims and
> > > > Christians are not
> > > > > allowed to kill Muslims. Are Muslims
> allowed
> > to kill
> > > > everyone else?
> > > > >
> > > > > Let us not be naive.
> > > > >
> > > > > """" Moezi believed that Islam and
> politics
> > were
> > > > “inter-mixed” because
> > > > > religion “could not be ignorant of
> social
> > issues.
> > > > And part of social issues
> > > > > is politics, therefore Islam should
> have
> > some sort of
> > > > eye on political
> > > > > issues”. """"""
> > > > >
> > > > > Fair enough and valid enough for your
> own
> > Islamic
> > > > country. I doubt it that
> > > > > it is acceptable to another
> Non-Islamic
> > country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Islam can keep keep all the 'eye' that
> it
> > wants to on
> > > > political issues but
> > > > > it should do so in Islamic Countries.
> When
> > your loud
> > > > pronouncements try to
> > > > > propagate/export that aspect of
> Islamicness
> > to the
> > > > Muslim citizens of a
> > > > > Non-Islamic country then you are
> creating
> > problems for
> > > > those Muslims.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kshmendra
> > > > >
> > > > > PS. Here is a quote from a participant
> in
> > the ongoing
> > > > congregation of
> > > > > Muslims (Tablighi) in Raiwind,
> Pakistan,
> > ranting
> > > > against the Taliban:
> > > > >
> > > > > """" ‘They call those who refuse to
> follow
> > their
> > > > brand of Islam infidels,
> > > > > not knowing they are inviting the wrath
> of
> > Allah the
> > > > almighty by killing
> > > > > Muslims, which I call an unholy
> crusade,
> > """"
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that. Allah's wrath is incurred
> if
> > Muslim kills
> > > > Muslim. It becomes an
> > > > > 'unholy crusade'. What happens when
> Muslim
> > kills
> > > > Non-Muslim? What defines a
> > > > > "holy crusade" ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Also note that Moezi is a Shia and the
> > Tabhligis are
> > > > Sunnis. Note the
> > > > > identicality of attitudes.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Mon, 11/16/09, anupam
> chakravartty
> > <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd:
> "Muslims
> > must quit UK
> > > > armed forces"
> > > > > To: "Rakesh Iyer" <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > > Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 7:21
> PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Ayatollah's words from Daily Mail
> > report:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > “Not only do I not accept it for
> Muslims
> > to go
> > > > there, I don’t accept
> > > > > non-Muslims to go there as well,”
> Moezi
> > said. “We
> > > > say that Muslims are
> > > > > not allowed to go and kill Muslims. Do
> you
> > think that
> > > > Christians are
> > > > > allowed to go and kill Muslims?”
> > > > >
> > > > > The cleric, 65, condemned the massacre
> in
> > Texas last
> > > > week of 13
> > > > > American soldiers at the Fort Hood base
> by a
> > Muslim
> > > > military
> > > > > psychiatrist and insisted that the
> incident
> > should not
> > > > be used to
> > > > > tarnish the image of the world’s 1.5
> > billion Muslim
> > > > population."
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Kshmendra,
> > > > >
> > > > > It is very clear that the appeal is not
> for
> > the
> > > > Muslims but for anyone
> > > > > who is opposed to the occupation of
> forces
> > in these
> > > > countries and also
> > > > > who are opposed to things like war in
> any
> > nation. I
> > > > think I can very
> > > > > well read it as a caution against any
> form
> > of war or
> > > > violence waged by
> > > > > anyone. Can we not say that Daily Mail
> was
> > wrong in
> > > > interpreting what
> > > > > this man was talking about? I am sure
> being
> > a Muslim,
> > > > and an Iranian
> > > > > is a peril in these times. Here
> allegiance
> > to a flag
> > > > is not the issue.
> > > > > In a phased manner thousands of young
> men
> > are exposed
> > > > to this conflict
> > > > > of energy-terror-security. after UK and
> US
> > have been
> > > > waging this war
> > > > > at the cost of these lives. would
> anyone
> > deny the
> > > > increasing number of
> > > > > coffins being brought back from Iraq
> and
> > Afghanistan?
> > > > there is no
> > > > > doubt that for a soldier a coffin of a
> > fellow comrade
> > > > is matter of
> > > > > pride and motivation, but what are
> these
> > soldiers
> > > > fighting for?
> > > > >
> > > > > -anupam
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/16/09, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message
> > ----------
> > > > > > From: Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>
> > > > > > Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 5:41
> PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list]
> "Muslims
> > must quit UK
> > > > armed forces"
> > > > > > To: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi (to all)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Today, after a long time, am I
> sending
> > one mail
> > > > to Sarai, having read
> > > > > some
> > > > > > of the most shocking kind of
> > statements,
> > > > presented in a very dubious
> > > > > manner
> > > > > > or shocking ways to prove that
> Muslims
> > are either
> > > > traitors, or that they
> > > > > > can't be loyal to anybody except
> to the
> > Ummah.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is disgusting that some people
> have
> > assumed
> > > > that Muslims are loyal not
> > > > > to
> > > > > > their own conscience or even to
> the
> > nations which
> > > > they are citizens of,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > to the Ummah, Mecca or the Saudi
> > regime, or to
> > > > the Mullahs and Maulvis
> > > > > who
> > > > > > for them are more important than
> what
> > the law of
> > > > the land states. Some
> > > > > > people on this forum, as also
> elsewhere
> > across
> > > > the nation, media and
> > > > > among
> > > > > > others, have thought this to be
> > obvious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is very wrong on any basis to
> make
> > such
> > > > conjectures and
> > > > > perception-based
> > > > > > statements unless one has done an
> > academic study
> > > > on this issue, to find
> > > > > out
> > > > > > the effect of what such statements
> do,
> > or how
> > > > many among the Muslims
> > > > > across
> > > > > > different nations, not only in
> India,
> > but also in
> > > > Europe and others, are
> > > > > > actually involved in terrorist
> > activities, or at
> > > > the least, supporting
> > > > > the
> > > > > > ideology of terrorism or even the
> > Al-Qaeda. I
> > > > don't know myself about any
> > > > > > such study having been conducted
> in
> > India or any
> > > > other nation for that
> > > > > > matter; if any of you has anything
> or
> > any study
> > > > to prove so, please do
> > > > > put
> > > > > > it forward.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is also shameful that Muslims
> across
> > India or
> > > > other regions have to
> > > > > prove
> > > > > > their loyalty because of these
> > shameful
> > > > perceptions. It's on this
> > > > > perception
> > > > > > factor that we have a Raj
> Thackeray who
> > is
> > > > stating that UP and Bihar
> > > > > people
> > > > > > are actually taking over the jobs
> of
> > the
> > > > Marathis. The ironic thing is
> > > > > that
> > > > > > in a newspaper article I have
> read, the
> > total no.
> > > > of migrants to Mumbai
> > > > > is
> > > > > > actually around 45%, out of which
> 37.3%
> > (the
> > > > largest) are from within
> > > > > > Maharashtra, followed by Uttar
> Pradesh
> > (which
> > > > when added to Maharashtra
> > > > > > migrants come over to close to
> 60%) and
> > then
> > > > Gujarat. Where does even
> > > > > Bihar
> > > > > > come into the picture? And all
> these
> > statistics
> > > > are based on a UNDP-BMC
> > > > > > survey report which has been done
> > recently. And
> > > > the report also says that
> > > > > > the situation has been the same
> with
> > little
> > > > difference in composition of
> > > > > > migrants since the 1960's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When did Muslims claim that they
> are
> > loyal to
> > > > Ayatollah Khamenei, Osama
> > > > > Bin
> > > > > > Laden, Hafiz Mohammed Sayeed,
> Syed
> > Salahuddin,
> > > > Tehrik-i-Taliban, or even
> > > > > the
> > > > > > local Mullah on the street for
> that
> > matter? And
> > > > how many Muslims even
> > > > > made
> > > > > > that claim? I know definitely of
> one
> > Muslim
> > > > family which always supported
> > > > > > Pakistan in matches against India,
> but
> > for that
> > > > one family, I know of at
> > > > > > least 5 Muslim friends of mine who
> had
> > abuses to
> > > > shower at Pakistan when
> > > > > > India won the Twenty-20 World Cup
> in
> > 2007.
> > > > Infact, some of them even
> > > > > claim
> > > > > > we should nuke Pakistan. Are they
> loyal
> > to
> > > > Pakistan? (although I do agree
> > > > > > nuking is not what we should do)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When the Hindutva ideologues, be
> it
> > RSS, VHP or
> > > > anybody including the
> > > > > Hindu
> > > > > > Munnani say something, I don't
> consider
> > it as the
> > > > views of the Hindus.
> > > > > Who
> > > > > > are they to represent the Hindus?
> Do
> > they even
> > > > know what being a Hindu
> > > > > is,
> > > > > > or what Hinduism is? The same
> argument
> > even
> > > > extends to those who think
> > > > > they
> > > > > > speak on behalf of the Muslims. Do
> they
> > know what
> > > > Islam is? Have they
> > > > > even
> > > > > > studied the Koran properly, and
> do
> > understand in
> > > > what context what has
> > > > > been
> > > > > > said? Every person has the right
> to
> > speak for
> > > > himself/herself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hence stop questioning the
> Muslims. Or
> > even
> > > > Hindus. Or Marathis. Or
> > > > > others.
> > > > > > If you want to question someone
> for
> > his/her
> > > > beliefs, don't ask questions
> > > > > to
> > > > > > anyone else but that person
> alone.
> > Neither assume
> > > > that somebody has got
> > > > > the
> > > > > > right to speak on behalf of
> others. One
> > Deoband
> > > > conference doesn't have
> > > > > the
> > > > > > right to speak for Muslims across
> > India, forget
> > > > across even entire
> > > > > > South-Asian region.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as the content of the
> previous
> > mail is
> > > > concerned, I think there
> > > > > are
> > > > > > positives to be taken, many of
> them. We
> > should
> > > > respect those. At the same
> > > > > > time, the representative has a
> right to
> > request
> > > > Muslims not to join the
> > > > > > forces, and his perspective is
> skewed,
> > fine. That
> > > > doesn't mean Muslims
> > > > > will,
> > > > > > by default, accept it. Muslims
> don't
> > have to.
> > > > It's their right to accept
> > > > > or
> > > > > > not accept, this skewed
> perspective.
> > What we have
> > > > a right to do, is to
> > > > > > explain to them why this
> perspective is
> > skewed or
> > > > not, depending on our
> > > > > > value system and judgement.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't just assume please, that
> Muslims
> > are
> > > > traitors or not traitors. Each
> > > > > > individual is different, please
> go
> > ahead and
> > > > respect their individuality.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rakesh
> > > > > >
> > _________________________________________
> > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion
> list on
> > media and
> > > > the city.
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> > > > >
> _________________________________________
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