[Reader-list] Selective condemnation of rape and murder has become bane of J&K politic

[Pawan Durani]

And here is the latest shocking report about Shopian..

http://www.earlytimes.in/newsdet.aspx?q=52063

'Doctors stored samples of Shopian women in tamarind jars'



Early Times Report
Srinagar, Apr 4: Six Kashmir doctors, accused by the CBI of
fabricating and falsifying crucial evidence in the Shopian case, had
callously stored forensic samples and body tissues from the two
deceased women in an empty tamarind jar and a chewing gun container.
This is one of the details to be presented before the Jammu and
Kashmir High court by the CBI in the ongoing hearings into the death
of Aasiya (17) and Neelofar (22), last May, which led to widespread
protests and bandhs that paralysed the Kashmir valley for 47 days.
This information will be given in response to the queries posed to the
CBI by the Jammu and Kashmir High Court, which had taken suo moto
cognizance of a letter by an unknown criminologist disputing the CBI's
findings in the case.
Official sources said other evidence that the CBI will present before
the court to prove its case that the two women were not raped and in
fact drowned, is an analysis of the water found in the lungs of the
deceased women. The water contained termites which had been ingested
while the women were drowning.
The probe agency, which carried out the investigation with the help of
forensic experts from AIIMS, will also inform the court that the
doctors in Kashmir, who have been named as accused in the case, had
stored the samples in empty jars of chewing gum and tamarind.
CBI, which will contest the so-called criminologist's letter as
malafide, has also prepared a detailed medical examination of the
hymen of Aasiya along with documents and microscopic slides to support
its claim that she was never raped or sexually assaulted.
Life in Shopian town, 51 kms from here, had come to a standstill after
the bodies of Neelofar and Aasiya were found in a stream in May last
year. Protests were held claiming that the two had been allegedly
raped and murdered. Four policemen including the then Superintendent
of Police Javed Mattoo were arrested following directions by the High
Court.
However, the CBI investigations found that the doctors in the district
hospital had not conducted the port-mortem properly and had in fact
fabricated evidence.

The CBI has based its finding on the opinion of experts from AIIMS,
Central Forensic and Scientific Laboratory and FSL of Haryana, which
said the women were never raped and had died due to drowning.

The CBI has now filed a chargesheet against six doctors -- Nighat
Shaheen, G Q Sofi, Maqbool Mir, G M Paul, Bilal Ahmed Dalal and Nazia
Hassan -- under Section 167 (public servant framing an incorrect
document) and Section 194 (giving or fabricating evidence with intent
to procure conviction of capital offence) of the Ranbir Penal Code.

The medicos were also charged with preparing false vaginal slides to
suggest rape.

Five lawyers including two former public prosecutors Mushtaq Ahmed
Gattoo and Sheikh Mubarak have also been charged with conspiring and
intimidating witnesses to make false submissions before a magistrate
about women's cries being heard from a police van.

Three lawyers, Abdul Majid Dar, Mohammed Yusuf Bhat and Altaf Ahmed,
have also been charged with wrongful confinement and criminal
conspiracy.





On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 5:24 AM, Junaid <justjunaid at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Sonia,
>
> Here is the link to, and the relevant passage from, Praveen IB Swami's
> article. Perhaps, you have read it; it says pretty much the same
> things that you are saying.
>
> http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article71564.ece
>
> "The Kashmir High Court Bar Association says it has a letter from
> AIIMS forensic medicine expert Sudhir Gupta, casting doubt on the
> forensic findings. Dr. Gupta has offered no independent corroboration
> of this claim; indeed, in an in-house AIIMS correspondence obtained by
> The Hindu, Dr. Gupta asked for a copy of the letter so he could give a
> “legitimate reply.” The AIIMS spat has led to some bizarre media
> allegations, including assertions that its experts helped to rig
> forensic evidence in the murder of a Delhi teenager — a case the
> institution had nothing to do with. Dr. Gupta, whose name was struck
> off the rolls of the Medical Council of India in 2004, on plagiarism
> charges, may or may not be a credible witness, but if there is any
> serious critique of the evidence marshalled by the CBI, it must be
> assessed and responded to."
>
> (Except Praveen IB declared all charges were  wrong, that every thing
> was a fabrication, and never waited for any criticism of the CBI
> report, which no one in Kashmir--the victims relatives, the high
> court, the Kashmiri people in Shopian and elsewhere, the independent
> tribunals, the local media, or even the pro-India political parties
> saw as credible!)
>
> Just briefly on Kunan-Poshpora. Since you said the victims of the mass
> rape don't want to talk about what befell them.
> You said: "You talk of Kunan Poshpora. Have you been there? I doubt
> it. But I have. I spent time, I talked to the women in private, away
> from the gaze of the men. And guess what? I believed them. And guess
> what else? They really hate being talked about, written about, bandied
> about by politicians who don't give a flying F about them."
>
> First I think your sweeping generalization "the gaze of men" is
> unsustainable in the context of nature of the Kashmiri society (and
> perhaps elsewhere as well). We do have, as you do, structural problems
> concerning gender. But please don't think you have a different kind
> of, or a privileged, access to Kashmiri women than have their own men.
> By using your unitary brush "men" you are, even if subtly, treating
> their own men on par with their rapists (Indian troops) and pro-India
> politicians. Just because Kashmir is a Muslim society, Indian media
> and the intelligentsia can't play the Laura Bush's "Saving Muzlim
> Women" card in Kashmir. In the Kashmiri context, it is the Indian
> state which acts like a hyper-aggressive male trying to domesticate
> Kashmiris. Both Kashmiri women AND men are victims of gendered
> violence of the Indian state.
>
> Second, here is a link to an excerpt where the women and the men of
> Kunan Poshpora actually do speak:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y3SuBvCDes&feature=related
>
> Courtesy of: Shilpi Gupta's "When the Storm Came" a documentary about
> 23 Feb 1991 Kunan Poshpora.
>
> And thanks for suggesting Truth and Reconciliation (?) Commission for Kashmir:
>
> "If and when there is peace in Kashmir there ought to be a truth &
> reconciliation commission where these matters can be raised. Not just
> what happened to women of Kunan Poshpora, but also scores of others
> like Sarla Butt (remember her?-- [REMEMBER HER sounds like you're
> insinuating something here...]--), Nigeena Awan, and Mariam Bi of Doda
> who had the great distinction of being gang-raped by militants and
> then carved up by knives."
>
> First, what does it mean "IF and WHEN there is PEACE in Kashmir there
> ought to be..........where these MATTERS CAN be raised"? Rape in Kunan
> Poshpora constitutes a crime against humanity since the Indian state
> is not accepting it and has no intention of bringing anyone to trial,
> meaning it is shielding culprits and effectively suggesting the whole
> incident had blessings of the state. MATTERS can't wait for your
> PEACE! Any Matter. And Reconciliation to what? Forced Military
> Occupation?
>
> Junaid
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 10:29 AM, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Sonia. thanks for offering some rational discourse on this otherwise
>> emotionally charged list. There seems to be a "revolution" on the way in US
>> in the form of tea party movement. The most regressive types today are
>> calling themselves revolutionary. These revolutionaries include as
>> regressive and as fascist a group as KKK. This movement that is getting a
>> lot of media attention is calling whoever does not agree with them, fascist.
>> Only those agree with them are true Americans. Their rallies include a lot
>> of gun-toting individuals who speak in favor of armed militia who would take
>> America back to impose middle ages on people.
>>
>> Well, what is the parallel? We will understand from some of these mails that
>> true Kashmiris are only those who think like them. Just say no, just disrupt
>> is the only right thing. There is nothing wrong in gun culture. It's okay to
>> subjugate women and behead those who think differently. Brand them as Indian
>> agent, Hindu agents, RSS agents wherever need be. Sadly, you will see some
>> of progressives playing in the hands of Kashmiri regressives.
>>
>> When I asked some time back who Junaid considered Kashmiris, my motives were
>> declared as specious. But yes there was a response that dekashmirize a lot
>> of Kashmiris. Now again when you talk about some miscreants, they equate it
>> as your calling all kashmiris names. In the name of an alternative model,
>> they have nothing but a philosophical chatter. If you ask my opinion, some
>> individuals for whom Kashmiris are bread and butter, have harmed the cause
>> of Kashmir. If their alternative model is as insane as the current one, what
>> is the need for change? If they just want to replace oppressors, is there
>> any reason for supporting the movement? It's not a freedom movement, it's
>> like give me the rein movement -- Let me control the asses, I mean masses.
>> Again, we need sane voices like yours, keep your emails coming.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> TaraPrakash
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Jabbar" <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
>> To: "Junaid" <justjunaid at gmail.com>
>> Cc: "Sarai" <reader-list at sarai.net>; "Sanjay Kak"
>> <jashneazadifilm at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 4:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Selective condemnation of rape and murder has
>> become bane of J&K politic
>>
>>
>>> Dear Junaid,
>>> I will respond point by point, and Sanju sorry, as I have ended up doing
>>> what I said I wouldn't in my email to you, but Junaid has made my task
>>> easier with specific charges/accusations/assertions.  For the rest of the
>>> people on this list, my apologies, as much of this will seem confusing
>>> without the longer narrative of the case, which I simply do not have the
>>> time to put down.
>>>
>>>> Shopian case has, from the day it became clear that the two women
>>>> hadn't simply drowned, been a game where it seems those responsible
>>>> are hell bent on proving that the women were neither sexually
>>>> assaulted nor murdered.
>>>
>>> This is simply not true.  Everyone was on the back foot when protests
>>> erupted following Omar Abdullah's statement that the women had drowned.
>>> After that the entire state machinery was employed to prove that they were
>>> raped and murdered.  This included the police investigation team led by
>>> IGP
>>> Kashmir, and the state govt. paying their lawyers Rs.13 Lakhs to stop the
>>> 4
>>> policemen (who were booked for dereliction of duty) from getting bail in
>>> the
>>> supreme court.
>>>>
>>> Jan pointed out that Asiya's death was caused by a gash on
>>>>
>>>> her forehead.
>>>
>>> Jan based his observations on the post-mortem report, which was
>>> fabricated.
>>> The doctors had not even x-rayed Asiya's skull let alone open it up to
>>> ascertain whether the wound had led to a brain hemorrhage. The first lot
>>> of
>>> doctors measured the wound to be 2-3 cm, the 2nd, 2-3 inches.  Wow!
>>> Fantastic.  If a tailor had this kind of margin of error he would've been
>>> without any customers and the Jan Commission doesn't even comment on this!
>>>
>>> CBI said it was not the reason, but since sand and
>>>>
>>>> phytoplankton from Rambiara were found inside the lungs CBI declared
>>>> it a case of drowning. Well clearly since Asiya's and Neelofar's body
>>>> were taken out of shallow water the possibility that the water could
>>>> have entered her lungs after her death was not even seen as a real
>>>> possibility.
>>>
>>> Dr. Bilal had claimed he had done a flotation test on the lungs, but when
>>> the bodies were exhumed and autopsy conducted in front of Majlis
>>> Mashawarat
>>> the lungs were found intact.  Turns out the tissue used was a slice of the
>>> heart! The AIIMS team did a flotation test on the lungs that failed.  This
>>> is recorded on camera and was done in front of members of the Majlis
>>> Mashawarat.
>>>
>>>> Intact hymen in one body doesn't rule out rape, right?
>>>
>>> Wrong.  If you can't figure out why I really don't want to go into this
>>> list. What else is there to prove rape?  The vaginal samples with multiple
>>> spermatozoa that were displayed as proof of a brutal 'gang rape' turned
>>> out
>>> to be the sick fabrication of Dr. Chiloo and Dr. Gh.Qadir who manufactured
>>> the samples by taking scrapings of gloves from the Pulwama district
>>> hospital.  A second slide was also prepared, bizarrely, from Dr.Chiloo's
>>> own
>>> vaginal swab. Ugh.
>>>
>>> Praveen IB Swami rubished
>>>>
>>>> him by suggesting that the doctor had been caught plagiarising in 2004
>>>> and was therefore not credible! If the doctor wasn't credible, why was
>>>> he in the investigation team in the first place?
>>>
>>> Pl attach Pravin Swmai's report. As far as I recall it was the Bar Assoc.
>>> that spread the canard.  And which doctor are you referring to?   The team
>>> of 9 doctors that was sent by AIIMS was led by the doctor who had done the
>>> post mortem on Indira Gandhi in '84. There were 9 doctors from AIIMS and 9
>>> scientists from the Central Forensic Laboratory.  From the autopsy to the
>>> tests to the preservation of the tissue samples was done on camera. Anyone
>>> wishing to challenge this can file an RTI and examine the evidence.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen Rambiara many times. Even where it joins Vaishav, which is
>>>> at its end, it is not deep enough. And generally at the end of May
>>>> water in Kashmiri streams is especially low, as some of it gets
>>>> diverted to paddy fields. Government did its best to suggest that
>>>> there was a sudden cloud burst and water overflowed in the brook. And
>>>> IB Swami claimed there was flood that night. I was in a place close to
>>>> Shopian around that time, and there had been no rain for days. Where
>>>> did the great flood myth come from? Old Testament?
>>>
>>> Let us not quibble but meet at the Rambiara on May 29th this year with a
>>> whole bunch of witnesses.  I have no idea what the weather will be like
>>> but
>>> really don't mind wagering you will not be able to cross.  Incidentally,
>>> the
>>> claim that no one has ever drowned in the Rambiara is false.  Please check
>>> J&K Police records from 1995-2009 and you will be surprised to learn that
>>> it
>>> wasn't just Neloufer and Asiya who were found washed up.
>>>
>>>> Anycase see photos of Rambi Ara here:
>>>> http://www.kashmirprocess.org/reports/shopian/shopian_materials.html
>>>> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2525/3751167090_9fe348e660.jpg
>>>> Would you have been able to cross it?
>>>>
>>>> Now what you are saying is this:
>>>>
>>>> "Early that morning, when the group saw some 'clothes' across the
>>>> nullah, the brother in-law went back some 200 yards, crossed the
>>>> bridge and then descended to the spot where they found Niloufer.  When
>>>> he shouted across the nullah to the men on the other side, Niloufer's
>>>> husband, wild with grief, wanted to leap into the nullah and go
>>>> straight across.  He was restrained and finally the men went back 200
>>>> yards, crossed the bridge and went down to the other side.  If the
>>>> water was 'ankle-deep' as everyone claims, the men would have walked
>>>> across without a fuss.  Why didn't they?"
>>>>
>>>> Well, I ask you this question: Why didn't the two women use the bridge
>>>> instead of doing a thing that even men (wild with grief) wouldn't do?
>>>> If the river was really not crossable why did the women do it? And,
>>>> more curiously, why both of them?
>>>
>>> Why did they cross?  Why did they not use the bridge?
>>> My dear Junaid, I wish I could answer this. I haven't the slightest clue,
>>> but even if one could answer this, how does it prove rape and murder?
>>>>
>>>> That you have been to Kunan-Poshpora (and, no, I haven't been there)
>>>> and that the victims are saying (and rightly so) that the politicians
>>>> (?) didn't care about them, that they didn't see any money, or that
>>>> they face enormous social hardships, does not prove that they were not
>>>> raped. It is a great failure of the Kashmiri society not to have
>>>> adequately shown solidarity with these women. But where are the
>>>> culprits? It is not so difficult to find them, right?
>>>>
>>> Have I said the culprits should not be punished, that rape should go
>>> unpunished?  You seem to be driven by a sick determination to twist
>>> everything I say. Kunan Poshpora, like many other crimes have gone
>>> unpunished.  If and when there is peace in Kashmir there ought to be a
>>> truth
>>> & reconciliation commission where these matters can be raised.  Not just
>>> what happened to women of Kunan Poshpora, but also scores of others like
>>> Sarla Butt (remember her?), Nigeena Awan, and Mariam Bi of Doda who had
>>> the
>>> great distinction of being gang-raped by militants and then carved up by
>>> knives.
>>>
>>>> In your earlier post you said this: "The reason I posted Fayyaz's
>>>> article was because it underscored what many on
>>>> this list are guilty of. Making a noise about things that further
>>>> their world views or political interests and keeping quiet when it
>>>> doesn't. I have no axe to grind." Whose worldviews and political
>>>> interests "on this list" are you talking about? You seem to suggest
>>>> that there are some hypocrites who make "noise about things". Well
>>>> first of all, most of the time I see absolute garbage posted here on
>>>> issues related to Kashmir. (Some posts count dead people in Kashmir in
>>>> "Ks"... 16 K instead of 219). Second, I don't think Fayyaz's report is
>>>> a sound way to underscore anything. In fact, his reports are doltish
>>>> in the least and dark propaganda if you read it carefully enough.
>>>>
>>> Garbage on this list, the doltishness of Fayyaz, the dark
>>> propaganda...this
>>> is the world we live in.  People don't always have to agree with you.
>>> Sometimes you have to engage with them, wrestle and debate with their
>>> ideas.
>>> It's too easy to brush people aside as Indian agents/Pakistani agents/ CIA
>>> agents. Sometimes annoying people and their irritating ideas can't just be
>>> wished away, or for that matter, liquidated.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Sonia Jabbar
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Junaid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:36 PM, S. Jabbar <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Junaid,
>>>>>
>>>>> Has Kashmir become a den of sleaze? Have I suggested that this is so and
>>>>> that 'Kashmiris are compulsive liars'? I don't think so. And if I have,
>>>>> I
>>>>> think you need to back your accusations with evidence from my posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> The CMO Pulwama, Dr. Ghulam Qadir's actions can hardly be conflated with
>>>>> the
>>>>> actions of all Kashmiris, so where is the question of Kashmir becoming a
>>>>> 'den of sex, sleaze and hypocrisy'? Having said that I still think it is
>>>>> necessary to examine the actions of this particular gentleman as he was
>>>>> the
>>>>> man ultimately responsible for collecting the vaginal samples and
>>>>> fudging
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have in my earlier post to Sanjay-- which I am sure you have read--
>>>>> condemned rapes and murders by men in khaki so I really don't understand
>>>>> your outrageous attempt to paint me as someone who condones violations
>>>>> in
>>>>> J&K or anywhere else.
>>>>>
>>>>> You talk of Kunan Poshpora. Have you been there? I doubt it. But I have.
>>>>> I spent time, I talked to the women in private, away from the gaze of
>>>>> the
>>>>> men. And guess what? I believed them. And guess what else? They really
>>>>> hate being talked about, written about, bandied about by politicians who
>>>>> don't give a flying F about them and have used them to further their
>>>>> political agenda. Guess what else? The money that was collected in their
>>>>> name by the men who made the greatest noise about the rapes never got to
>>>>> them. And guess what else? They are still known as 'the raped village'
>>>>> and
>>>>> girls who were too little at the time of the ghastly incident are still
>>>>> tormented whenever they leave their village to attend a HS school in a
>>>>> nearby village-- not by men in khaki, but by their own brethren.
>>>>>
>>>>> Turning to Shopian. I have read every report on the case. Have you been
>>>>> to
>>>>> the Rambiara? Has anyone determined where exactly the women drowned? All
>>>>> that is known is where the bodies were found. The bodies were found near
>>>>> the bridge way downstream from the logical point of crossing from their
>>>>> orchard to their home, both which were upstream. All people who claimed
>>>>> they could not have drowned in Rambiara where the bodies were found were
>>>>> absolutely correct. However, if you bother to read the testimonies of
>>>>> the
>>>>> victims' relatives in the Jan Commission Report you will realize that
>>>>> even
>>>>> that spot was difficult to cross. Early that morning, when the group saw
>>>>> some 'clothes' across the nullah, the brother in-law went back some 200
>>>>> yards, crossed the bridge and then descended to the spot where they
>>>>> found
>>>>> Niloufer. When he shouted across the nullah to the men on the other
>>>>> side,
>>>>> Niloufer's husband, wild with grief, wanted to leap into the nullah and
>>>>> go
>>>>> straight across. He was restrained and finally the men went back 200
>>>>> yards,
>>>>> crossed the bridge and went down to the other side. If the water was
>>>>> 'ankle-deep' as everyone claims, the men would have walked across
>>>>> without a
>>>>> fuss. Why didn't they?
>>>>>
>>>>> To date no one who claims there was a rape and murder have been able to
>>>>> scientifically establish cause of death. And if you cannot establish
>>>>> cause
>>>>> of death how can you say whether, it is homicide, suicide, or death by
>>>>> accident? Soon after the incident the state government had announced a
>>>>> reward of 25 lakh rupees to any information leading to the arrest of the
>>>>> culprits. Every man, woman and child was following this case in J&K. And
>>>>> yet to date not a single person has come up with any information leading
>>>>> to
>>>>> the arrest of the culprits. Every claim when investigated turned out to
>>>>> be
>>>>> false.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the claim of rape or gang rape: where is the evidence?
>>>>> Everything
>>>>> that has come out points to the contrary.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as your last assertion, I only have one thing to say, and that
>>>>> is, I
>>>>> don't need to prove 2 women were raped and murdered to underscore how
>>>>> bad it
>>>>> is in Kashmir to be living under the shadow of so many guns. I have
>>>>> always
>>>>> said this and will say it again: India and Pakistan must resolve
>>>>> Kashmir.
>>>>> The solution must be acceptable to all people and regions of J&K.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Junaid <justjunaid at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:56:02 -0400
>>>>>> To: Sarai <reader-list at sarai.net>, Sanjay Kak
>>>>>> <jashneazadifilm at gmail.com>,
>>>>>> "S.
>>>>>> Jabbar" <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Selective condemnation of rape and murder
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> become bane of J&K politic
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sonia,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for sending across a slew of sordid reports suggesting how
>>>>>> Kashmir has become a den of sex, sleaze, and hypocrisy. Your posts are
>>>>>> complemented well by Kshmendra Kaul's post which asserts that
>>>>>> Kashmiris are compulsive liars, and Pawan Durani's forwards that
>>>>>> underscore how Kashmiris lie about human rights violations by the
>>>>>> Indian troops. Between the three of you, you have finally nailed the
>>>>>> true psyche of Kashmiris! But you know since sleaze is something that
>>>>>> defines the present state of politics in and about Kashmir, the nature
>>>>>> of what is written about it cannot entirely escape its shadow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have a history of making "noises" about rapes and molestations and
>>>>>> almost invariably we have been told by the Indian agencies and the
>>>>>> Indian media that we are wrong. The rape of dozens of women in
>>>>>> Kunan-Poshpora in Kupwara by the Indian army has been declared a
>>>>>> fabrication by the Indian govt and its intellegentsia. A number of
>>>>>> books (authored by pro-establishment people like Manoj Joshi, Tavleen
>>>>>> Singh etc) and tomes of news-stories have been manufactured to silence
>>>>>> our "hypocritical" "noise". Press Council of India put a stamp of
>>>>>> innocence on the Indian army units involved. (Only, we came to know
>>>>>> later that BG Verghese hadn't even visited the village or talked to
>>>>>> any victims). But that is too far in the past.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reports of sexual abuse and exploitation of underage Kashmiri
>>>>>> girls by the pro-India politicians, the bureaucrats, and the top
>>>>>> officers of the paramilitary forces and the police, and the subsequent
>>>>>> investigations have led to nowhere. CBI didn't particularly prove
>>>>>> itself to be objective or free from political influence in that case.
>>>>>> See:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/highcourtnamesstringofvvipsinsexualabuseca
>>>>>> se
>>>>>> /226255/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is quite understandable that, after all this, the Kashmiri people
>>>>>> (and the sane people in India who see what CBI did to the Bofors case
>>>>>> and the Hawala scandal) don't trust its "reports". See:
>>>>>> http://kashmirprocess.com/news/20100104_GK_Wani.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, when you say "Based on the evidence that we have at the (moment) I
>>>>>> do not believe it was either rape or murder", I would like to know
>>>>>> what "evidence" are you talking about. What evidence do you have to
>>>>>> suggest that the two women found dead in knee-deep water were not
>>>>>> raped and murdered? If you have "evidence" it means you are suggesting
>>>>>> that the evidence points to an alternative scenario. What is that
>>>>>> scenario? Unless you are suggesting that both the women happened to
>>>>>> drown in the rivulet, in which even fish didn't have water enough to
>>>>>> swim! (Well, that scenario would not need evidence but a miracle... or
>>>>>> a dopey imagination!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am asking this because it seems you have an opinion on what actually
>>>>>> happened to the two women. After all, you call it a "tragic death": "I
>>>>>> feel wretched that 2 women died a tragic death and then they were
>>>>>> subjected to the worst kind of public scrutiny for months, their
>>>>>> sexual lives speculated upon, their characters ground down to the
>>>>>> dust.." You are right about the second part, of course. But the
>>>>>> question is who speculated on the character of the two women, or cast
>>>>>> aspersions about the role of Neelofar's husband? Who was most
>>>>>> interested in showing the women as bad-charactered?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you read these two reports:
>>>>>> http://www.kashmirprocess.org/reports/shopian/ and
>>>>>> http://www.kashmirtimes.com/shopian-report.pdf ? But these are
>>>>>> independent reports. What happened to the findings of the Jan
>>>>>> Commission? It was a govt report, right? It established rape and
>>>>>> murder. See http://www.hindu.com/nic/shopian/index.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In reality, even if I accept your (self-appointed) three-member
>>>>>> bench's unanimous conclusion about Kashmiris as liars, hypocrites, and
>>>>>> manipulators, don't you think it still keeps pointing to the single
>>>>>> most important thing about Kashmiri opinion about Indian rule over
>>>>>> Kashmir: that they don't like it at all. That Indian rule over Kashmir
>>>>>> has no democratic legitimacy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Junaid
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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