[Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development

Thu Jun 3 20:57:10 IST 2010

Well said:

"Majoritarianism is not democracy."

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 8:55 PM, <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> First of all we obviously have a dissent on the question whether
> generalisations about the Indian public can be made or not, and given that
> you accuse me of idiotic arrogance in this regard this dissent in itself
> is very strong. So please tell me what exactly you find wrong with my
> doing so. Then we have a second dissent which concerns the very question
> of idiotic arrogance on my part, which I clearly dispute.
> Since you brought in Bipin now: 'well-working' in terms of organisation is
> not the same as 'well-working' in terms of democracy. The Third Reich
> worked extremely well in terms of annihilating the German and European
> Jews. Singapore works extremely well in terms of providing economic
> security while curtailing freedom of speech. Under these conditions it's
> obviously difficult to make out whether this finds the actual majority of
> the voters, but even if it does, it's not democratic. Gujarat, which
> cannot openly curtail democratic rights, works extremely well in
> concealing the plight of many Muslims by simply denying that they exist
> and by denying that the state systematically clamps down on those who
> disrupt the picture presented. By finding a majority of the voters for
> this strategy, it is indeed well-functioning but undermining democracy.
> Majoritarianism is not democracy.
>
>
> > Dear Britta
> >
> > Dissent???? What dissent?
> >
> > If you are talking about your 'dissent' with Bipin, I have little
> interest
> > in that, in the context of Modi/Gujarat since I do not know enough about
> > Gujarat and am highly suspicious of Modi being any good for India
> > (whatever else might be his claim to what he has done or not-done for
> > Gujarat)
> >
> > I did not comment on your 'dissent'.
> >
> > I commented on the 'assent' you granted to your arrogance by making a
> > generalisation  about "Indian Public" in stating that:
> >
> >  "silencing any rational counter-argument" ...... "has been the problem
> of
> > this list, and of the Indian public, for quite a while now."
> >
> > You obviously see nothing wrong with making such a generalisation.
> >
> > Please have the last word.
> >
> > Kshmendra
> >
> > PS. Your comment to Bipin "Singapore is also a well-working state. But
> > it's not a democracy." seems to suggest that you agree with the article
> > you commented upon and that Gujarat is a "'well-working state" (like
> > Singapore) but that (like Singapore) there is no democracy in
> > Gujarat.        Interesting
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
> > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 5:09 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Kshmendra,
> > that is indeed a very satisfying answer to a reasonable question.
> Bouncing
> > off dissent is the privilege of those who refuse communicating.
> > I have the answer, thanks.
> > B
> >
> >
> > Am 03.06.2010 um 13:10 schrieb Kshmendra Kaul:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Britta
> >
> > If you need to wonder about your "idiotic arrogance" then not much can be
> > said to you.
> >
> > Keep wondering. You might at some stage find the answer.
> >
> > K
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
> > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de, "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 10:17 PM
> >
> >
> > I wonder why it should represent an audacity to make a generalisation or
> > to point to a problem. My name is Britta, by the way.
> >
> >> OHM
> >>
> >> Whatever be your feelings about the absence or presence of rationality
> >> or
> >> irrationality in an individual or members of this List, it says much
> >> about
> >> you when you make generalisations about the 'Indian Public'.
> >>
> >> Idiotic arrogance
> >>
> >> Kshmendra
> >>
> >> --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
> >> To: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" <rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>
> >> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> >> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 8:57 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> Rajen, you're talking - even within the (lacking) logic of your own
> >> argument - such nonsense that it hurts. If it is deliberate, it is a
> >> smart
> >> move, if not, it is very sad, in any case it has the effect of silencing
> >> any rational counter-argument, and this has been the problem of this
> >> list,
> >> and of the Indian public, for quite a while now.
> >>
> >>
> >>> What courage is needed to mention about the refugee camps of tibetans
> >>> in
> >>> Bylakuppe and bailahongal in Karnataka, where the hard work, no
> >>> nonsense
> >>> approach to life and skills saw the tibetans rise again from strength
> >>> to
> >>> strength, what courage is needed to mention about the jewish camps
> >>> where
> >>> millions were gassed and subsequent rush to other nations where they
> >>> were
> >>> refugees but integreted with the society to rise as powerful
> >>> bankers.?What
> >>> courage is needed to talk about the brilliance of the next generation
> >>> of
> >>> pandits who studied hard, played harder to acquire skills and achieve
> >>> higher
> >>> lifestyles.?
> >>> courage is needed to talk about the camps of useless individuals who
> >>> expect
> >>> all gifts from the system for voting the leaders to power.!
> >>> regards,
> >>> rajen
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:44 PM, anupam chakravartty
> >>> <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Bipin Trivedi
> >>>>
> >>>> you do not have the courage to reply back when list members wanted to
> >>>> show
> >>>> you the conditions of the relief camps of 2002 survivors in Gujarat.
> >>>> what
> >>>> are you quoting this report for?
> >>>>
> >>>> anupam
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:34 PM, <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > Singapore is also a well-working state. But it's not a democracy.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The Sachar Committee report indirectly challenges other states to
> >>>> emulate
> >>>> > > Gujarat chief minister's policy of secular development and
> >>>> > ânationalise'
> >>>> > > it
> >>>> > > By Pravin Sheth
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > In setting up the Sachar Committee, the UPA government had its own
> >>>> > > objectives. Contrary to the expectations of Chief Minister
> >>>> Narendra
> >>>> > Modi's
> >>>> > > critics, the committee's comparative statewise statistics of
> >>>> parameters
> >>>> > > like education, employment and income of the Muslim population
> >>>> living
> >>>> in
> >>>> > > the country proves Gujarat is far ahead of other states, even
> >>>> those
> >>>> ruled
> >>>> > > by so-called secular parties.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > In terms of literacy, Muslims in Gujarat stood at 73.5% as
> >>>> compared
> >>>> to
> >>>> > the
> >>>> > > national average of 59.1. The figure for urban males is 76, and 81
> >>>> for
> >>>> > > those in rural areas as compared to the national average of 70 and
> >>>> 62
> >>>> > > respectively in similar categories.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The average literacy rate of Muslim women in urban Gujarat is five
> >>>> points
> >>>> > > higher than the national average, whereas those in rural Gujarat
> >>>> fare
> >>>> > even
> >>>> > > better with a literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the
> >>>> national
> >>>> > > average of 43.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > A greater percentage of Muslims here have attained primary,
> >>>> secondary
> >>>> and
> >>>> > > higher-secondary level education. The national average is 60.9%.
> >>>> Muslim
> >>>> > > children in Gujarat are benefiting from equal opportunities to
> >>>> access
> >>>> > > secondary schooling as other children.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Take other aspect of economic well-being of Muslims in Gujarat.
> >>>> Here
> >>>> > also,
> >>>> > > the Sachar Committee dispels the myth.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The report counters the propaganda that injustice is being done to
> >>>> the
> >>>> > > Muslim community in Gujarat
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The per month per capita income of Muslims in urban Gujarat is an
> >>>> average
> >>>> > > Rs 875 â more than the national average of Rs 804. In contrast, it
> >>>> is
> >>>> > Rs
> >>>> > > 662 in UP, Rs 748 in West Bengal, Rs 811 in Punjab, Rs 803 in
> >>>> Andhra
> >>>> > > Pradesh and Rs 837 in Karnataka.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > In rural Gujarat, the per capita monthly income of Muslims is
> >>>> 20-25%
> >>>> more
> >>>> > > than the Muslims living in rural areas of most other states. On an
> >>>> > > average, it comes to Rs 668 compared to the national average of Rs
> >>>> 553.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > In terms of Muslims living below poverty line, Gujarat improved
> >>>> from
> >>>> 54%
> >>>> > > in 1987-88 to 34% in 2004-2005, showing a healthy pace of
> >>>> improvement.
> >>>> > > Even in terms of share of Muslims in state employment, it is 5.4%
> >>>> in
> >>>> > > Gujarat while it is 2.1% in West Bengal, 3.2% in Delhi and 4.4% in
> >>>> > > Maharashtra.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Overall, the total picture counters the propaganda that injustice
> >>>> is
> >>>> > being
> >>>> > > done to Muslims in Gujarat. The Sachar Committee on educational
> >>>> condition
> >>>> > > clearly shows that the Muslims of Gujarat are progressing well in
> >>>> the
> >>>> > > field of education and economic well-being. They are well cared
> >>>> for.
> >>>> The
> >>>> > > facts on their economic conditions dispel similar myths about
> >>>> their
> >>>> being
> >>>> > > discriminated against or being denied equal opportunity.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The fact is echoed by the Imam of Jama Masjid in Ahmedabad, who
> >>>> > reportedly
> >>>> > > commented sometime back "Muslims have an opportunity to prosper in
> >>>> the
> >>>> > > peaceful environment that the Modi government has created. Modi
> >>>> has
> >>>> > > provided an atmosphere which is conducive for those who want to
> >>>> trade
> >>>> > > peacefully in Gujarat".
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > The Sachar report indirectly challenges other states to emulate
> >>>> Modi's
> >>>> > > policy of secular development and ânationalise' it.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Ironically, vociferous secularists are silent regarding the
> >>>> findings.
> >>>> > They
> >>>> > > continue to focus on Modi-1 as branded during the 2002 carnage and
> >>>> > > Sohrabuddin encounter â a chief minister habitually noted to
> >>>> dishonour
> >>>> > > the rule of law, a friend of corporate magnets to the detriment of
> >>>> > > villagers and SEZ-affected disadvantaged.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > However, there is popularly a more accepted Modi-2 â a dynamic CM
> >>>> > > realising the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor, the Special
> >>>> Investment
> >>>> > > Regions, port-based development, âHopenhagen', BRTS, GDP, and much
> >>>> > more.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > But the two Modis fail to merge as some anti-Modi ideologues
> >>>> refuse
> >>>> to
> >>>> > > discern the significant transformation in his leadership.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Can Modi, hubris-free, demonstrate his transformation to abridge
> >>>> this
> >>>> > > perception-reality gap?
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Source Link:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > _________________________________________
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> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > _________________________________________
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> >>>> >
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Rajen.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > Dr. Britta Ohm
> >
> > Institute of Social Anthropology
> > University of Bern
> > Laenggassstr. 49a
> > 3012 Bern
> > Switzerland
> > +41-(0)31-631 8995 (main office)
> > +41-(0)31-631 8997 (direct line)
> > britta.ohm at anthro.unibe.ch
> >
> >
> > Solmsstr. 36
> > 10961 Berlin
> > Germany
> > +49-(0)30-69507155
> >
> > ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________
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