[Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development

Thu Jun 3 22:53:59 IST 2010

Let's hear what it is.

I wish we could offer the ones that are being discussed option to stay in 
Singapore and see if democratic considerations come in to play when they 
make their decisions.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development

> First of all we obviously have a dissent on the question whether
> generalisations about the Indian public can be made or not, and given that
> you accuse me of idiotic arrogance in this regard this dissent in itself
> is very strong. So please tell me what exactly you find wrong with my
> doing so. Then we have a second dissent which concerns the very question
> of idiotic arrogance on my part, which I clearly dispute.
> Since you brought in Bipin now: 'well-working' in terms of organisation is
> not the same as 'well-working' in terms of democracy. The Third Reich
> worked extremely well in terms of annihilating the German and European
> Jews. Singapore works extremely well in terms of providing economic
> security while curtailing freedom of speech. Under these conditions it's
> obviously difficult to make out whether this finds the actual majority of
> the voters, but even if it does, it's not democratic. Gujarat, which
> cannot openly curtail democratic rights, works extremely well in
> concealing the plight of many Muslims by simply denying that they exist
> and by denying that the state systematically clamps down on those who
> disrupt the picture presented. By finding a majority of the voters for
> this strategy, it is indeed well-functioning but undermining democracy.
> Majoritarianism is not democracy.
>
>
>> Dear Britta
>>
>> Dissent???? What dissent?
>>
>> If you are talking about your 'dissent' with Bipin, I have little 
>> interest
>> in that, in the context of Modi/Gujarat since I do not know enough about
>> Gujarat and am highly suspicious of Modi being any good for India
>> (whatever else might be his claim to what he has done or not-done for
>> Gujarat)
>>
>> I did not comment on your 'dissent'.
>>
>> I commented on the 'assent' you granted to your arrogance by making a
>> generalisation about "Indian Public" in stating that:
>>
>> "silencing any rational counter-argument" ...... "has been the problem of
>> this list, and of the Indian public, for quite a while now."
>>
>> You obviously see nothing wrong with making such a generalisation.
>>
>> Please have the last word.
>>
>> Kshmendra
>>
>> PS. Your comment to Bipin "Singapore is also a well-working state. But
>> it's not a democracy." seems to suggest that you agree with the article
>> you commented upon and that Gujarat is a "'well-working state" (like
>> Singapore) but that (like Singapore) there is no democracy in
>> Gujarat. Interesting
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>> To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>> Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 5:09 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> Kshmendra,
>> that is indeed a very satisfying answer to a reasonable question. 
>> Bouncing
>> off dissent is the privilege of those who refuse communicating.
>> I have the answer, thanks.
>> B
>>
>>
>> Am 03.06.2010 um 13:10 schrieb Kshmendra Kaul:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Britta
>>
>> If you need to wonder about your "idiotic arrogance" then not much can be
>> said to you.
>>
>> Keep wondering. You might at some stage find the answer.
>>
>> K
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>> To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de, "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 10:17 PM
>>
>>
>> I wonder why it should represent an audacity to make a generalisation or
>> to point to a problem. My name is Britta, by the way.
>>
>>> OHM
>>>
>>> Whatever be your feelings about the absence or presence of rationality
>>> or
>>> irrationality in an individual or members of this List, it says much
>>> about
>>> you when you make generalisations about the 'Indian Public'.
>>>
>>> Idiotic arrogance
>>>
>>> Kshmendra
>>>
>>> --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>>> To: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" <rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 8:57 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> Rajen, you're talking - even within the (lacking) logic of your own
>>> argument - such nonsense that it hurts. If it is deliberate, it is a
>>> smart
>>> move, if not, it is very sad, in any case it has the effect of silencing
>>> any rational counter-argument, and this has been the problem of this
>>> list,
>>> and of the Indian public, for quite a while now.
>>>
>>>
>>>> What courage is needed to mention about the refugee camps of tibetans
>>>> in
>>>> Bylakuppe and bailahongal in Karnataka, where the hard work, no
>>>> nonsense
>>>> approach to life and skills saw the tibetans rise again from strength
>>>> to
>>>> strength, what courage is needed to mention about the jewish camps
>>>> where
>>>> millions were gassed and subsequent rush to other nations where they
>>>> were
>>>> refugees but integreted with the society to rise as powerful
>>>> bankers.?What
>>>> courage is needed to talk about the brilliance of the next generation
>>>> of
>>>> pandits who studied hard, played harder to acquire skills and achieve
>>>> higher
>>>> lifestyles.?
>>>> courage is needed to talk about the camps of useless individuals who
>>>> expect
>>>> all gifts from the system for voting the leaders to power.!
>>>> regards,
>>>> rajen
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:44 PM, anupam chakravartty
>>>> <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bipin Trivedi
>>>>>
>>>>> you do not have the courage to reply back when list members wanted to
>>>>> show
>>>>> you the conditions of the relief camps of 2002 survivors in Gujarat.
>>>>> what
>>>>> are you quoting this report for?
>>>>>
>>>>> anupam
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:34 PM, <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Singapore is also a well-working state. But it's not a democracy.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > The Sachar Committee report indirectly challenges other states to
>>>>> emulate
>>>>> > > Gujarat chief minister's policy of secular development and
>>>>> > ânationalise'
>>>>> > > it
>>>>> > > By Pravin Sheth
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > In setting up the Sachar Committee, the UPA government had its own
>>>>> > > objectives. Contrary to the expectations of Chief Minister
>>>>> Narendra
>>>>> > Modi's
>>>>> > > critics, the committee's comparative statewise statistics of
>>>>> parameters
>>>>> > > like education, employment and income of the Muslim population
>>>>> living
>>>>> in
>>>>> > > the country proves Gujarat is far ahead of other states, even
>>>>> those
>>>>> ruled
>>>>> > > by so-called secular parties.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > In terms of literacy, Muslims in Gujarat stood at 73.5% as
>>>>> compared
>>>>> to
>>>>> > the
>>>>> > > national average of 59.1. The figure for urban males is 76, and 81
>>>>> for
>>>>> > > those in rural areas as compared to the national average of 70 and
>>>>> 62
>>>>> > > respectively in similar categories.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > The average literacy rate of Muslim women in urban Gujarat is five
>>>>> points
>>>>> > > higher than the national average, whereas those in rural Gujarat
>>>>> fare
>>>>> > even
>>>>> > > better with a literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the
>>>>> national
>>>>> > > average of 43.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > A greater percentage of Muslims here have attained primary,
>>>>> secondary
>>>>> and
>>>>> > > higher-secondary level education. The national average is 60.9%.
>>>>> Muslim
>>>>> > > children in Gujarat are benefiting from equal opportunities to
>>>>> access
>>>>> > > secondary schooling as other children.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Take other aspect of economic well-being of Muslims in Gujarat.
>>>>> Here
>>>>> > also,
>>>>> > > the Sachar Committee dispels the myth.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > The report counters the propaganda that injustice is being done to
>>>>> the
>>>>> > > Muslim community in Gujarat
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > The per month per capita income of Muslims in urban Gujarat is an
>>>>> average
>>>>> > > Rs 875 â more than the national average of Rs 804. In contrast, it
>>>>> is
>>>>> > Rs
>>>>> > > 662 in UP, Rs 748 in West Bengal, Rs 811 in Punjab, Rs 803 in
>>>>> Andhra
>>>>> > > Pradesh and Rs 837 in Karnataka.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > In rural Gujarat, the per capita monthly income of Muslims is
>>>>> 20-25%
>>>>> more
>>>>> > > than the Muslims living in rural areas of most other states. On an
>>>>> > > average, it comes to Rs 668 compared to the national average of Rs
>>>>> 553.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > In terms of Muslims living below poverty line, Gujarat improved
>>>>> from
>>>>> 54%
>>>>> > > in 1987-88 to 34% in 2004-2005, showing a healthy pace of
>>>>> improvement.
>>>>> > > Even in terms of share of Muslims in state employment, it is 5.4%
>>>>> in
>>>>> > > Gujarat while it is 2.1% in West Bengal, 3.2% in Delhi and 4.4% in
>>>>> > > Maharashtra.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Overall, the total picture counters the propaganda that injustice
>>>>> is
>>>>> > being
>>>>> > > done to Muslims in Gujarat. The Sachar Committee on educational
>>>>> condition
>>>>> > > clearly shows that the Muslims of Gujarat are progressing well in
>>>>> the
>>>>> > > field of education and economic well-being. They are well cared
>>>>> for.
>>>>> The
>>>>> > > facts on their economic conditions dispel similar myths about
>>>>> their
>>>>> being
>>>>> > > discriminated against or being denied equal opportunity.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > The fact is echoed by the Imam of Jama Masjid in Ahmedabad, who
>>>>> > reportedly
>>>>> > > commented sometime back "Muslims have an opportunity to prosper in
>>>>> the
>>>>> > > peaceful environment that the Modi government has created. Modi
>>>>> has
>>>>> > > provided an atmosphere which is conducive for those who want to
>>>>> trade
>>>>> > > peacefully in Gujarat".
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > The Sachar report indirectly challenges other states to emulate
>>>>> Modi's
>>>>> > > policy of secular development and ânationalise' it.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Ironically, vociferous secularists are silent regarding the
>>>>> findings.
>>>>> > They
>>>>> > > continue to focus on Modi-1 as branded during the 2002 carnage and
>>>>> > > Sohrabuddin encounter â a chief minister habitually noted to
>>>>> dishonour
>>>>> > > the rule of law, a friend of corporate magnets to the detriment of
>>>>> > > villagers and SEZ-affected disadvantaged.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > However, there is popularly a more accepted Modi-2 â a dynamic CM
>>>>> > > realising the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor, the Special
>>>>> Investment
>>>>> > > Regions, port-based development, âHopenhagen', BRTS, GDP, and much
>>>>> > more.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > But the two Modis fail to merge as some anti-Modi ideologues
>>>>> refuse
>>>>> to
>>>>> > > discern the significant transformation in his leadership.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Can Modi, hubris-free, demonstrate his transformation to abridge
>>>>> this
>>>>> > > perception-reality gap?
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Source Link:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > _________________________________________
>>>>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations
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>>>>> > > subscribe in the subject header.
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>>>>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _________________________________________
>>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
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>>>>> >
>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Rajen.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________
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>>> Critiques & Collaborations
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------
>> Dr. Britta Ohm
>>
>> Institute of Social Anthropology
>> University of Bern
>> Laenggassstr. 49a
>> 3012 Bern
>> Switzerland
>> +41-(0)31-631 8995 (main office)
>> +41-(0)31-631 8997 (direct line)
>> britta.ohm at anthro.unibe.ch
>>
>>
>> Solmsstr. 36
>> 10961 Berlin
>> Germany
>> +49-(0)30-69507155
>>
>> ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _________________________________________
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