[Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development

[ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de]

Well, it's majoritarianism, as the word says. It operates on the basis of
sheer numbers, and if these numbers in their majority decide that it is ok
to kill everyone who wears green shirts that's a majoritarian vote, but
not a democratic one.
The second part of your intervention I don't understand. Who do you mean
by 'the ones'?

> Let's hear what it is.
>
> I wish we could offer the ones that are being discussed option to stay in
> Singapore and see if democratic considerations come in to play when they
> make their decisions.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>
>
>> First of all we obviously have a dissent on the question whether
>> generalisations about the Indian public can be made or not, and given
>> that
>> you accuse me of idiotic arrogance in this regard this dissent in itself
>> is very strong. So please tell me what exactly you find wrong with my
>> doing so. Then we have a second dissent which concerns the very question
>> of idiotic arrogance on my part, which I clearly dispute.
>> Since you brought in Bipin now: 'well-working' in terms of organisation
>> is
>> not the same as 'well-working' in terms of democracy. The Third Reich
>> worked extremely well in terms of annihilating the German and European
>> Jews. Singapore works extremely well in terms of providing economic
>> security while curtailing freedom of speech. Under these conditions it's
>> obviously difficult to make out whether this finds the actual majority
>> of
>> the voters, but even if it does, it's not democratic. Gujarat, which
>> cannot openly curtail democratic rights, works extremely well in
>> concealing the plight of many Muslims by simply denying that they exist
>> and by denying that the state systematically clamps down on those who
>> disrupt the picture presented. By finding a majority of the voters for
>> this strategy, it is indeed well-functioning but undermining democracy.
>> Majoritarianism is not democracy.
>>
>>
>>> Dear Britta
>>>
>>> Dissent???? What dissent?
>>>
>>> If you are talking about your 'dissent' with Bipin, I have little
>>> interest
>>> in that, in the context of Modi/Gujarat since I do not know enough
>>> about
>>> Gujarat and am highly suspicious of Modi being any good for India
>>> (whatever else might be his claim to what he has done or not-done for
>>> Gujarat)
>>>
>>> I did not comment on your 'dissent'.
>>>
>>> I commented on the 'assent' you granted to your arrogance by making a
>>> generalisation about "Indian Public" in stating that:
>>>
>>> "silencing any rational counter-argument" ...... "has been the problem
>>> of
>>> this list, and of the Indian public, for quite a while now."
>>>
>>> You obviously see nothing wrong with making such a generalisation.
>>>
>>> Please have the last word.
>>>
>>> Kshmendra
>>>
>>> PS. Your comment to Bipin "Singapore is also a well-working state. But
>>> it's not a democracy." seems to suggest that you agree with the article
>>> you commented upon and that Gujarat is a "'well-working state" (like
>>> Singapore) but that (like Singapore) there is no democracy in
>>> Gujarat. Interesting
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Britta Ohm <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>>> To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>>> Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 5:09 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kshmendra,
>>> that is indeed a very satisfying answer to a reasonable question.
>>> Bouncing
>>> off dissent is the privilege of those who refuse communicating.
>>> I have the answer, thanks.
>>> B
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 03.06.2010 um 13:10 schrieb Kshmendra Kaul:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Britta
>>>
>>> If you need to wonder about your "idiotic arrogance" then not much can
>>> be
>>> said to you.
>>>
>>> Keep wondering. You might at some stage find the answer.
>>>
>>> K
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>>> To: "Kshmendra Kaul" <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de, "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 10:17 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder why it should represent an audacity to make a generalisation
>>> or
>>> to point to a problem. My name is Britta, by the way.
>>>
>>>> OHM
>>>>
>>>> Whatever be your feelings about the absence or presence of rationality
>>>> or
>>>> irrationality in an individual or members of this List, it says much
>>>> about
>>>> you when you make generalisations about the 'Indian Public'.
>>>>
>>>> Idiotic arrogance
>>>>
>>>> Kshmendra
>>>>
>>>> --- On Wed, 6/2/10, ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Gujarat's secular development
>>>> To: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" <rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 8:57 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rajen, you're talking - even within the (lacking) logic of your own
>>>> argument - such nonsense that it hurts. If it is deliberate, it is a
>>>> smart
>>>> move, if not, it is very sad, in any case it has the effect of
>>>> silencing
>>>> any rational counter-argument, and this has been the problem of this
>>>> list,
>>>> and of the Indian public, for quite a while now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> What courage is needed to mention about the refugee camps of tibetans
>>>>> in
>>>>> Bylakuppe and bailahongal in Karnataka, where the hard work, no
>>>>> nonsense
>>>>> approach to life and skills saw the tibetans rise again from strength
>>>>> to
>>>>> strength, what courage is needed to mention about the jewish camps
>>>>> where
>>>>> millions were gassed and subsequent rush to other nations where they
>>>>> were
>>>>> refugees but integreted with the society to rise as powerful
>>>>> bankers.?What
>>>>> courage is needed to talk about the brilliance of the next generation
>>>>> of
>>>>> pandits who studied hard, played harder to acquire skills and achieve
>>>>> higher
>>>>> lifestyles.?
>>>>> courage is needed to talk about the camps of useless individuals who
>>>>> expect
>>>>> all gifts from the system for voting the leaders to power.!
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> rajen
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:44 PM, anupam chakravartty
>>>>> <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bipin Trivedi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> you do not have the courage to reply back when list members wanted
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> show
>>>>>> you the conditions of the relief camps of 2002 survivors in Gujarat.
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> are you quoting this report for?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> anupam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:34 PM, <ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Singapore is also a well-working state. But it's not a democracy.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > The Sachar Committee report indirectly challenges other states
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> emulate
>>>>>> > > Gujarat chief minister's policy of secular development and
>>>>>> > ânationalise'
>>>>>> > > it
>>>>>> > > By Pravin Sheth
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > In setting up the Sachar Committee, the UPA government had its
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> > > objectives. Contrary to the expectations of Chief Minister
>>>>>> Narendra
>>>>>> > Modi's
>>>>>> > > critics, the committee's comparative statewise statistics of
>>>>>> parameters
>>>>>> > > like education, employment and income of the Muslim population
>>>>>> living
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> > > the country proves Gujarat is far ahead of other states, even
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> ruled
>>>>>> > > by so-called secular parties.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > In terms of literacy, Muslims in Gujarat stood at 73.5% as
>>>>>> compared
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> > the
>>>>>> > > national average of 59.1. The figure for urban males is 76, and
>>>>>> 81
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> > > those in rural areas as compared to the national average of 70
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> 62
>>>>>> > > respectively in similar categories.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > The average literacy rate of Muslim women in urban Gujarat is
>>>>>> five
>>>>>> points
>>>>>> > > higher than the national average, whereas those in rural Gujarat
>>>>>> fare
>>>>>> > even
>>>>>> > > better with a literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the
>>>>>> national
>>>>>> > > average of 43.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > A greater percentage of Muslims here have attained primary,
>>>>>> secondary
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> > > higher-secondary level education. The national average is 60.9%.
>>>>>> Muslim
>>>>>> > > children in Gujarat are benefiting from equal opportunities to
>>>>>> access
>>>>>> > > secondary schooling as other children.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > Take other aspect of economic well-being of Muslims in Gujarat.
>>>>>> Here
>>>>>> > also,
>>>>>> > > the Sachar Committee dispels the myth.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > The report counters the propaganda that injustice is being done
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > > Muslim community in Gujarat
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > The per month per capita income of Muslims in urban Gujarat is
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> average
>>>>>> > > Rs 875 â more than the national average of Rs 804. In contrast,
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> > Rs
>>>>>> > > 662 in UP, Rs 748 in West Bengal, Rs 811 in Punjab, Rs 803 in
>>>>>> Andhra
>>>>>> > > Pradesh and Rs 837 in Karnataka.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > In rural Gujarat, the per capita monthly income of Muslims is
>>>>>> 20-25%
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> > > than the Muslims living in rural areas of most other states. On
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> > > average, it comes to Rs 668 compared to the national average of
>>>>>> Rs
>>>>>> 553.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > In terms of Muslims living below poverty line, Gujarat improved
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> 54%
>>>>>> > > in 1987-88 to 34% in 2004-2005, showing a healthy pace of
>>>>>> improvement.
>>>>>> > > Even in terms of share of Muslims in state employment, it is
>>>>>> 5.4%
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> > > Gujarat while it is 2.1% in West Bengal, 3.2% in Delhi and 4.4%
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> > > Maharashtra.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > Overall, the total picture counters the propaganda that
>>>>>> injustice
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> > being
>>>>>> > > done to Muslims in Gujarat. The Sachar Committee on educational
>>>>>> condition
>>>>>> > > clearly shows that the Muslims of Gujarat are progressing well
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > > field of education and economic well-being. They are well cared
>>>>>> for.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> > > facts on their economic conditions dispel similar myths about
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> > > discriminated against or being denied equal opportunity.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > The fact is echoed by the Imam of Jama Masjid in Ahmedabad, who
>>>>>> > reportedly
>>>>>> > > commented sometime back "Muslims have an opportunity to prosper
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > > peaceful environment that the Modi government has created. Modi
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> > > provided an atmosphere which is conducive for those who want to
>>>>>> trade
>>>>>> > > peacefully in Gujarat".
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > The Sachar report indirectly challenges other states to emulate
>>>>>> Modi's
>>>>>> > > policy of secular development and ânationalise' it.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > Ironically, vociferous secularists are silent regarding the
>>>>>> findings.
>>>>>> > They
>>>>>> > > continue to focus on Modi-1 as branded during the 2002 carnage
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> > > Sohrabuddin encounter â a chief minister habitually noted to
>>>>>> dishonour
>>>>>> > > the rule of law, a friend of corporate magnets to the detriment
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> > > villagers and SEZ-affected disadvantaged.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > However, there is popularly a more accepted Modi-2 â a dynamic
>>>>>> CM
>>>>>> > > realising the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor, the Special
>>>>>> Investment
>>>>>> > > Regions, port-based development, âHopenhagen', BRTS, GDP, and
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> > more.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > But the two Modis fail to merge as some anti-Modi ideologues
>>>>>> refuse
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> > > discern the significant transformation in his leadership.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > Can Modi, hubris-free, demonstrate his transformation to abridge
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> > > perception-reality gap?
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > Source Link:
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/article/59/20100527201005270359478766a84c375/Gujarat%E2%80%99s-secular-development.html
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > _________________________________________
>>>>>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations
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>>>>>> with
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>>>>>> > > To unsubscribe:
>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>>>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _________________________________________
>>>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
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>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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>>>>>> >
>>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
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>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Rajen.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________
>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
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>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------
>>> Dr. Britta Ohm
>>>
>>> Institute of Social Anthropology
>>> University of Bern
>>> Laenggassstr. 49a
>>> 3012 Bern
>>> Switzerland
>>> +41-(0)31-631 8995 (main office)
>>> +41-(0)31-631 8997 (direct line)
>>> britta.ohm at anthro.unibe.ch
>>>
>>>
>>> Solmsstr. 36
>>> 10961 Berlin
>>> Germany
>>> +49-(0)30-69507155
>>>
>>> ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________
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>> Critiques & Collaborations
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>