[Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS

anupam chakravartty c.anupam at gmail.com
Wed May 26 19:00:48 IST 2010 

Pawan,

Analyse your concerns for Gujarat as well when you (or Bipin) selectively
pick up only some topics or issues from the state while turning a blind eye
to everything else. Such is this apathy, that indigenous communities, mostly
Bhils from Dahod are now being turned into puppets during the implementation
of the Forest Rights Act.

But you speak for Hindus, I forgot. I wonder how many Hindus really bother
about Krishna's idols in Gujarat. How many actually source their energies
through these idols? For some, it is getting their names engraved on the
stones next to these idols by sending funds or donations. So Loving or
believing or respecting one's god these days is a question of ego not of
faith. (it is same as my car is longer than yours) If it was faith, such
fierce defence or such assertions wouldn't have been required. One also
would not require these mindless pontifications in defence of the good and
the god. here the idea of god is in doubt Pawan, not your faith. it is going
to remain the way it is. so it is your god ( or your ego) or may be of those
who were rioting over this idol business, which needs to be rescued not
everybody else. do not assume that you can speak for peoples' faith. you
have no idea what it is.

best
anupam

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:15 PM, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:

> Pawan, one doesnt need to be believer or non-believer to admonish an act of
> crime in the name of whichever religion. I think i have not hurt anyone by
> any means when i say that an idol is a piece of stone. if you have problem,
> you can take this discussion to somewhere else where your views are
> endorsed. not here!
>
> Please reply to the questions being posed Pawan. You are aimlessly arguing
> here. If Bipin doesnt have answers, the questions are open to all. Tell me
> if you need a comparative analysis of data for a period of time, about one
> particular community to ascertain whether it is doing well or not for
> Gujarat? that's all i asked.
>
>
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Dear Anupam ,
>>
>> If you are an atheist , I would respect your decision for being that.
>> However I would request you to respect others faith as well.
>>
>> A stone for you may be a representation of God for many.
>>
>> Please restrict your views on faith and oblige.
>>
>> Pawan
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:52 PM, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Pawan,
>>>
>>> your intervention here is unneccesary. i think you have option of
>>> continuing this discussion anyway. doesnt it infuriate you that people in
>>> this country are out to kill each other for piece of stone?
>>>
>>> anupam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anupam,
>>>>
>>>> It seems you re always angry ....Never knew that
>>>> a query would infuriate you so much.
>>>>
>>>> In recent case a Hindu marriage procession was not allowed to pass a
>>>> road where a mosque also existed.
>>>>
>>>> What else do you need to know Mr Anupam C
>>>>
>>>> pawan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:14 PM, anupam chakravartty <
>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Pawan,
>>>>>
>>>>> An idol was desecrated just like temples were brought down in
>>>>> Gandhinagar and Mazars was razed in Karjan in Vadodara district, graves
>>>>> razed in Dahod, just like a Swami murdered in Vadtal at the swaminarayan
>>>>> temple. actually you know what, the God in that idol was killed long ago by
>>>>> their own believers. Didnt you know that Pawan? Pity that you are so
>>>>> blissfully unaware about it and feign some kind of innocence in initiating a
>>>>> discussion on communal rioting in Shahpur. That riots have become
>>>>> institutionalized in Gujarat and people place bets on them is a known fact
>>>>> as demonstrated by the arrest of Vadodara bookie, Arvind Valand last year
>>>>> where he confessed. for all you know, your discussion about this particular
>>>>> might be bringing more cash for the bookies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Instead you could address some of the questions i have put up for
>>>>> Bipin.
>>>>>
>>>>> anupam
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see
>>>>>> anyone discussing that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> pawan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty <
>>>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bipin,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report
>>>>>>> filed?
>>>>>>> Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a
>>>>>>> comparative
>>>>>>> analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the
>>>>>>> community now and then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thanks anupam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled "
>>>>>>> > <http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/>
>>>>>>> Hard facts
>>>>>>> > to
>>>>>>> > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat.
>>>>>>> > <http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts/623677/0> A part of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > letter
>>>>>>> > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The
>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>> > version
>>>>>>> > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is
>>>>>>> enclosed
>>>>>>> > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Refer link:
>>>>>>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level
>>>>>>> committee
>>>>>>> > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr
>>>>>>> Manmohan
>>>>>>> > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> > better when compared with other states in several key indicators
>>>>>>> such as
>>>>>>> > education, employment, income and access to critical
>>>>>>> infrastructure. The
>>>>>>> > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > facts below speak for themselves.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw
>>>>>>> deal in
>>>>>>> > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed
>>>>>>> Muslims in
>>>>>>> > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored.
>>>>>>> According
>>>>>>> > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in
>>>>>>> Gujarat
>>>>>>> > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note
>>>>>>> that this
>>>>>>> > is
>>>>>>> > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent.
>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>> > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5
>>>>>>> points
>>>>>>> > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far
>>>>>>> much better
>>>>>>> > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national
>>>>>>> average
>>>>>>> > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per
>>>>>>> cent (as
>>>>>>> > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this
>>>>>>> percentage
>>>>>>> > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private
>>>>>>> schools
>>>>>>> > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in
>>>>>>> Gujarat
>>>>>>> > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have
>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>> > to education much better than in other states. If you look at
>>>>>>> Muslim
>>>>>>> > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are
>>>>>>> 74.9 per
>>>>>>> > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the
>>>>>>> category of
>>>>>>> > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those
>>>>>>> who have
>>>>>>> > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of
>>>>>>> secondary
>>>>>>> > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura
>>>>>>> area of
>>>>>>> > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and
>>>>>>> ghettoisation
>>>>>>> > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts
>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>> > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are
>>>>>>> > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there
>>>>>>> are 13
>>>>>>> > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also
>>>>>>> 15
>>>>>>> > private
>>>>>>> > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > Muslim
>>>>>>> > children to enroll themselves.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to
>>>>>>> pooh-pooh the
>>>>>>> > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if
>>>>>>> "his
>>>>>>> > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his
>>>>>>> > politics
>>>>>>> > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has
>>>>>>> called the
>>>>>>> > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the
>>>>>>> indicator of
>>>>>>> > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee
>>>>>>> report
>>>>>>> > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other
>>>>>>> states.
>>>>>>> > The
>>>>>>> > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing
>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>> > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far
>>>>>>> ahead
>>>>>>> > of
>>>>>>> > the national average. In the category of villages with population
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> > Muslims
>>>>>>> > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against
>>>>>>> 98.7 per
>>>>>>> > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population,
>>>>>>> 99.9 per
>>>>>>> > cent villages have education facilities as against the national
>>>>>>> average of
>>>>>>> > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6
>>>>>>> per cent
>>>>>>> > of
>>>>>>> > the villages have education facility as against the national
>>>>>>> average of
>>>>>>> > 80.4
>>>>>>> > per cent.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in
>>>>>>> villages, where
>>>>>>> > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have
>>>>>>> medical
>>>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the
>>>>>>> > category
>>>>>>> > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical
>>>>>>> facilities
>>>>>>> > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of
>>>>>>> villages
>>>>>>> > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical
>>>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity,
>>>>>>> > availability
>>>>>>> > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> > many
>>>>>>> > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is
>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>> > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs
>>>>>>> 668
>>>>>>> > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610);
>>>>>>> West
>>>>>>> > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The
>>>>>>> per
>>>>>>> > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the
>>>>>>> national
>>>>>>> > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in
>>>>>>> terms of
>>>>>>> > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is
>>>>>>> Rs 32,932
>>>>>>> > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few
>>>>>>> examples.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of
>>>>>>> government
>>>>>>> > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public
>>>>>>> sectors
>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>> > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat
>>>>>>> where the
>>>>>>> > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high
>>>>>>> posts is 8.5
>>>>>>> > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2
>>>>>>> per
>>>>>>> > cent
>>>>>>> > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims
>>>>>>> fare far
>>>>>>> > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> > letter.
>>>>>>> > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly
>>>>>>> > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated
>>>>>>> into a
>>>>>>> > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the
>>>>>>> minorities. Your
>>>>>>> > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The
>>>>>>> high-powered
>>>>>>> > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> > true.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > _________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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