[Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS

Pawan Durani pawan.durani at gmail.com
Wed May 26 20:01:07 IST 2010 

<<<<<<<Turning a blind eye to to everything else >>>>>

Arent you blind to everything else Mr Anupam C ....so fixated towards
Gujarat....as long as you exist ...so would I...

Enjoy !

Pawan

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 7:00 PM, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:

> Pawan,
>
> Analyse your concerns for Gujarat as well when you (or Bipin) selectively
> pick up only some topics or issues from the state while turning a blind eye
> to everything else. Such is this apathy, that indigenous communities, mostly
> Bhils from Dahod are now being turned into puppets during the implementation
> of the Forest Rights Act.
>
> But you speak for Hindus, I forgot. I wonder how many Hindus really bother
> about Krishna's idols in Gujarat. How many actually source their energies
> through these idols? For some, it is getting their names engraved on the
> stones next to these idols by sending funds or donations. So Loving or
> believing or respecting one's god these days is a question of ego not of
> faith. (it is same as my car is longer than yours) If it was faith, such
> fierce defence or such assertions wouldn't have been required. One also
> would not require these mindless pontifications in defence of the good and
> the god. here the idea of god is in doubt Pawan, not your faith. it is going
> to remain the way it is. so it is your god ( or your ego) or may be of those
> who were rioting over this idol business, which needs to be rescued not
> everybody else. do not assume that you can speak for peoples' faith. you
> have no idea what it is.
>
> best
> anupam
>
>
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:15 PM, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Pawan, one doesnt need to be believer or non-believer to admonish an act
>> of crime in the name of whichever religion. I think i have not hurt anyone
>> by any means when i say that an idol is a piece of stone. if you have
>> problem, you can take this discussion to somewhere else where your views are
>> endorsed. not here!
>>
>> Please reply to the questions being posed Pawan. You are aimlessly arguing
>> here. If Bipin doesnt have answers, the questions are open to all. Tell me
>> if you need a comparative analysis of data for a period of time, about one
>> particular community to ascertain whether it is doing well or not for
>> Gujarat? that's all i asked.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Anupam ,
>>>
>>> If you are an atheist , I would respect your decision for being that.
>>> However I would request you to respect others faith as well.
>>>
>>> A stone for you may be a representation of God for many.
>>>
>>> Please restrict your views on faith and oblige.
>>>
>>> Pawan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:52 PM, anupam chakravartty <c.anupam at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pawan,
>>>>
>>>> your intervention here is unneccesary. i think you have option of
>>>> continuing this discussion anyway. doesnt it infuriate you that people in
>>>> this country are out to kill each other for piece of stone?
>>>>
>>>> anupam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anupam,
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems you re always angry ....Never knew that
>>>>> a query would infuriate you so much.
>>>>>
>>>>> In recent case a Hindu marriage procession was not allowed to pass a
>>>>> road where a mosque also existed.
>>>>>
>>>>> What else do you need to know Mr Anupam C
>>>>>
>>>>> pawan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:14 PM, anupam chakravartty <
>>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Pawan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An idol was desecrated just like temples were brought down in
>>>>>> Gandhinagar and Mazars was razed in Karjan in Vadodara district, graves
>>>>>> razed in Dahod, just like a Swami murdered in Vadtal at the swaminarayan
>>>>>> temple. actually you know what, the God in that idol was killed long ago by
>>>>>> their own believers. Didnt you know that Pawan? Pity that you are so
>>>>>> blissfully unaware about it and feign some kind of innocence in initiating a
>>>>>> discussion on communal rioting in Shahpur. That riots have become
>>>>>> institutionalized in Gujarat and people place bets on them is a known fact
>>>>>> as demonstrated by the arrest of Vadodara bookie, Arvind Valand last year
>>>>>> where he confessed. for all you know, your discussion about this particular
>>>>>> might be bringing more cash for the bookies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead you could address some of the questions i have put up for
>>>>>> Bipin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> anupam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see
>>>>>>> anyone discussing that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pawan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty <
>>>>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bipin,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report
>>>>>>>> filed?
>>>>>>>> Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition
>>>>>>>> of one
>>>>>>>> particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a
>>>>>>>> comparative
>>>>>>>> analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the
>>>>>>>> community now and then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thanks anupam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled "
>>>>>>>> > <http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/>
>>>>>>>> Hard facts
>>>>>>>> > to
>>>>>>>> > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat.
>>>>>>>> > <http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts/623677/0> A part of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> > letter
>>>>>>>> > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The
>>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>>> > version
>>>>>>>> > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is
>>>>>>>> enclosed
>>>>>>>> > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Refer link:
>>>>>>>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level
>>>>>>>> committee
>>>>>>>> > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr
>>>>>>>> Manmohan
>>>>>>>> > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> > better when compared with other states in several key indicators
>>>>>>>> such as
>>>>>>>> > education, employment, income and access to critical
>>>>>>>> infrastructure. The
>>>>>>>> > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts.
>>>>>>>> However the
>>>>>>>> > facts below speak for themselves.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw
>>>>>>>> deal in
>>>>>>>> > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed
>>>>>>>> Muslims in
>>>>>>>> > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored.
>>>>>>>> According
>>>>>>>> > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims
>>>>>>>> in Gujarat
>>>>>>>> > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note
>>>>>>>> that this
>>>>>>>> > is
>>>>>>>> > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and
>>>>>>>> also the
>>>>>>>> > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per
>>>>>>>> cent. Even
>>>>>>>> > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate
>>>>>>>> 5 points
>>>>>>>> > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far
>>>>>>>> much better
>>>>>>>> > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the
>>>>>>>> national average
>>>>>>>> > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the
>>>>>>>> country?
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per
>>>>>>>> cent (as
>>>>>>>> > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this
>>>>>>>> percentage
>>>>>>>> > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private
>>>>>>>> schools
>>>>>>>> > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims
>>>>>>>> in Gujarat
>>>>>>>> > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they
>>>>>>>> have access
>>>>>>>> > to education much better than in other states. If you look at
>>>>>>>> Muslim
>>>>>>>> > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are
>>>>>>>> 74.9 per
>>>>>>>> > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the
>>>>>>>> category of
>>>>>>>> > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those
>>>>>>>> who have
>>>>>>>> > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of
>>>>>>>> secondary
>>>>>>>> > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again
>>>>>>>> Gujarat with
>>>>>>>> > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura
>>>>>>>> area of
>>>>>>>> > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and
>>>>>>>> ghettoisation
>>>>>>>> > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the
>>>>>>>> facts prove
>>>>>>>> > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are
>>>>>>>> > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there
>>>>>>>> are 13
>>>>>>>> > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also
>>>>>>>> 15
>>>>>>>> > private
>>>>>>>> > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> > Muslim
>>>>>>>> > children to enroll themselves.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to
>>>>>>>> pooh-pooh the
>>>>>>>> > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question
>>>>>>>> if "his
>>>>>>>> > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> > politics
>>>>>>>> > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has
>>>>>>>> called the
>>>>>>>> > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the
>>>>>>>> indicator of
>>>>>>>> > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee
>>>>>>>> report
>>>>>>>> > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other
>>>>>>>> states.
>>>>>>>> > The
>>>>>>>> > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing
>>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>>> > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is
>>>>>>>> far ahead
>>>>>>>> > of
>>>>>>>> > the national average. In the category of villages with population
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> > Muslims
>>>>>>>> > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against
>>>>>>>> 98.7 per
>>>>>>>> > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population,
>>>>>>>> 99.9 per
>>>>>>>> > cent villages have education facilities as against the national
>>>>>>>> average of
>>>>>>>> > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6
>>>>>>>> per cent
>>>>>>>> > of
>>>>>>>> > the villages have education facility as against the national
>>>>>>>> average of
>>>>>>>> > 80.4
>>>>>>>> > per cent.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in
>>>>>>>> villages, where
>>>>>>>> > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have
>>>>>>>> medical
>>>>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> > category
>>>>>>>> > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical
>>>>>>>> facilities
>>>>>>>> > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of
>>>>>>>> villages
>>>>>>>> > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have
>>>>>>>> medical
>>>>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity,
>>>>>>>> > availability
>>>>>>>> > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national
>>>>>>>> average and
>>>>>>>> > many
>>>>>>>> > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is
>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>> > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs
>>>>>>>> 668
>>>>>>>> > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This
>>>>>>>> is much
>>>>>>>> > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610);
>>>>>>>> West
>>>>>>>> > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) .
>>>>>>>> The per
>>>>>>>> > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the
>>>>>>>> national
>>>>>>>> > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in
>>>>>>>> terms of
>>>>>>>> > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is
>>>>>>>> Rs 32,932
>>>>>>>> > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few
>>>>>>>> examples.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of
>>>>>>>> government
>>>>>>>> > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public
>>>>>>>> sectors
>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>> > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat
>>>>>>>> where the
>>>>>>>> > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high
>>>>>>>> posts is 8.5
>>>>>>>> > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is
>>>>>>>> 25.2 per
>>>>>>>> > cent
>>>>>>>> > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims
>>>>>>>> fare far
>>>>>>>> > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> > letter.
>>>>>>>> > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification
>>>>>>>> of his
>>>>>>>> > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly
>>>>>>>> > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated
>>>>>>>> into a
>>>>>>>> > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the
>>>>>>>> minorities. Your
>>>>>>>> > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The
>>>>>>>> high-powered
>>>>>>>> > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent
>>>>>>>> not only
>>>>>>>> > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> > true.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > _________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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