[Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists"

Wed Oct 13 00:47:29 IST 2010

Dear Shashi, Javed and Prakash,

Thanks for this interesting little exchange. One reason to demand  
that the ASI report on Ayodhya be made a public document, because, it  
actually suggests a lot going on 'below' the so-called Ram  
Janmabhoomi stratigraphic layer. It is one of the reasons, as any ASI  
old timer will tell you, why, the Ayodhya excavations were eventually  
abandoned and left incomplete by the ASI establishment, which was  
always partial to the Hindutva lobby.

  Hindutva advocates are actually quite uncomfortable with what is  
'below' the Ram Janmabhoomi layer, because it would probably expose,  
as you rightly point out, the fact that the Ram Janmabhoomi layer is  
istelf founded on the destruction of what came previous to it -  
probably Buddhist or Jain remains. Now, if we take the faiths of  
those people who are not Hindus, but Buddhists, Jains etc, seriously,  
then, we have to, by the logic of the Alllahabad High Court  
judgement, actually prioritize those who might stake a  claim to the  
pre-Ram Janmabhoomi layer.

Shashi says - "one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some shankara  
you will know better" - actually the story of how the Buddha became  
absorbed into the dashavatara of Vishnu pantheon is quite intriguing.  
A majority of the puranic and shastric sources that make this claim,  
do so, with a strangely twisted and perverted logic - and it goes  
somewhat like this - Vishnu was incarnated as Buddha in order to  
preach a false doctrine (read Buddhism) to the Asuras (demons) who  
had become very powerful through their diligent prayers and  
sacrifices. The Asuras, persuaded by what the Buddha taught,  
abandoned the Vedas, abandoned rituals and dogmas, and so, became  
weak and lost all their potency. So, they could be defeated.  
Apparently, according to some of these sources, Shankara, was an  
incarnation of Shiva, who then arrived on earth to clean up the job  
that remained to be done once the false doctrine of Buddhism had  
weakened the opponents of the devas (the gods). The destruction of  
Buddhists shrines in India, of which there is ample evidence in pre- 
Islamic times, needs to be seen against the context of this inventive  
rationalization.

If you want more details of how the revival of Vedic dharma required  
the recasting of the Buddha as a great fraud (not something Buddhists  
have reason to be very comfortable with, notwishtanding the  
contemporary Hindu rights forced attempt at forging an artificial  
kinship with Buddhists) - simply read - the chapter on the Buddha as  
an Avatar of Vishnu in Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty's excellent study -  
'The Origin of Evil in Hindu Mythology'  (University of California  
Press, 1980).

The real problem that Buddhists and Jains have, vis-a-vis Hindu  
Hierarchs, in this matter, is that unlike Hindutva-vadis, being the  
adherents of essentially agnostic or atheistic religions, they have  
no god, no 'virajman devta' (presiding deity) who can be used as a  
front and as a partner in the setting up of  a convenient faith based  
real estate mafia through an equally convenient exercise in up- 
country litigation, lock-breaking, trespass and some sleight of hand  
(or should we say sleight of pickaxe and shovel)

best

Shuddha

On 12-Oct-10, at 11:09 PM, Javed wrote

> Dear Shashi
> You say science has proved there is no god, but you are still
> concerned about the Hinduness of temples and neo-Buddhists. Why?
>
> I did not conduct any research before posting this - I have only
> forwarded a news item from the Daily Telegraph (its link is given at
> the bottom). The problem is that I have a Muslim name, hence I
> shouldn't be making such a comment (many people will kill me), but if
> you go beyond the wikipedia knowlegde, you will come to know that
> Gautam Buddha could never be the Dashavatara - he was himself agains
> all sorts of avataras and deities and divinities. I don't need to read
> wikipedia to know this. It would be good to ask the Dalits and
> neo-Buddhists if they think they are Hindus.
>
> thanks
>
> Javed
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Shashidhar
> <shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org> wrote:
>> Javed
>>
>> All major hindu temples? Dalits and neo Buddhists are not hindus?  
>> Hindus destroyed other hindu temples from sixth century BC to 13th  
>> Century AD, Several Buddhist viharas were converted by placing  
>> hindu idols ( where when how, one of the dashavtaras is Buddha,  
>> Read some shankara you will know better)
>>
>> According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at  
>> Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once  
>> Buddhist temples.
>> Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple  
>> was originally a Buddhist temple, he said.
>>
>> Did you conduct any research before posting this.....
>>
>> Read about tirupati, Palani and guruvayoor on something as simple  
>> as Wikipedia and you will know a lot more. There are about 1000  
>> temples in Kashi which one is Mr. JP talking about...
>>
>> Peace.
>>
>> There is no god, science has proved it, there is no god and people  
>> who believe in the power of prayer are at best delusional, it is  
>> though not correct to twist and turn history to suit our present  
>> delusions.
>>
>> Shashi
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list- 
>> bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Javed
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:31 PM
>> To: sarai list
>> Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists"
>>
>> Before Hindus and Muslims can decide on this matter, the dalits or  
>> neo-Buddhists may like to stake their claim, since they believe  
>> all major Hindu temples have been built after destroying ancient  
>> Buddhist sites.
>>
>> Why didn't Mayawati think of building a memorial to Kanshi Ram on  
>> the disputed Ayodhya site.
>>
>> ----
>>
>> Return Hindu shrines: Dalits
>> OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
>>
>> New Delhi, Oct. 8: Call it the Babri verdict fallout: a group of  
>> Dalit rights activists has decided to approach the government  
>> demanding that Buddha and Jain viharas that have been converted to  
>> Hindu temples should be returned to the original owners.
>>
>> The group, made up of Ambedkar followers, academics, advocates and  
>> activists, has also decided to approach the Supreme Court with the  
>> demand.
>>
>> Several Buddha and Jain viharas were there in the country from  
>> sixth century BC to 13th century AD, which were later converted  
>> into Hindu temples by placing idols in them, the group said.
>>
>> Now that Allahabad High Court has given Hindus two-thirds of the  
>> land on which Babri Masjid stood on the ground that there was a  
>> temple at the site before the mosque was constructed, all those  
>> viharas should also be returned, they argued.
>>
>> According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at  
>> Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once  
>> Buddhist temples.
>> Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple  
>> was originally a Buddhist temple, he said.
>>
>> Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas were destroyed in  
>> India between AD 830 and AD 966 in the name of Hindu revivalism,  
>> Jayaprakash said. Literary and archaeological sources within and  
>> outside India speak of this, he added.
>>
>> Other members of the group include “Dalit Bandhu” N.K. Jose, Bhim  
>> Jayaraj and Vijay Shekhar.
>>
>> The group is planning to meet BSP chief Mayavati. “We hope that  
>> Mayavati, whose vote bank is largely made up of Dalits and neo- 
>> Buddhists, will be receptive to the idea. The issue is both  
>> political and religious — a deadly concoction which no politician  
>> can afford to neglect,” said one activist.
>>
>> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101009/jsp/nation/story_13037587.jsp
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>>
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Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net