[Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists"

Wed Oct 13 10:24:58 IST 2010

Dear Subhardra,

When you say hindu do you mean people like me and javed and everyone else in
India or only those 5% or maybe even lesser population of zealots who are
still concerned over this dialogue for purely political reasons, cmon they
do not  believe in any god.. These fellows are using us and if the argument
is still above us, may all your gods help us.  Born into a hindu family so I
am one, it not as if all muslims and hindus have undertaken studies of the
religion and chosen a particular path of spirituality over the others. We
mostly do not have any choice in the god or the theology we wish to follow.
It is ok for people to believe in anything but not right on technocrats to
present half baked facts based some report published by some government body
who they is aligned to the right-wing forces, and none including the muslims
in ASI have integrity to publish the facts. Most of us do not know Sanskrit,
pali, prakrit, we rely on crude translations of these texts whose
genuineness is questionable.  None of has gone to Ayodhya, asked the people
what they want, none of us care that thre were thankfully no roits, none us
are worried about judicial incompetence in the case of more than 1 Lakh
under trials, but yes those acres of land interest all of us.

It is all in the past, long gone forgotten, no one cares, I repeat there is
no god, show me god and we can talk about gods and temple dedicated to gods.
Javed mentioned in his mail, Bhagawan Buddha vetoed all form of idol
worship, why pagodas and temples. 

Yes what Subhadra says is right on, there were periods of turbulence in
Hindu history, life was getting to be too ritualistsic and people were
forgetting science or community life, during such times, Gautama rose like a
phoenix and set things right, so did chaitnya mahaprabhu, djaneshwar,
madvacharya, shankara, bullesh shah. For me the reading from all these
masters tells me of the nonexistence of any god, Surrender to self and a
life of peace being more important than rubble and dust.

No historian can with authority speak of the past,  talking to historians
sometimes is more like talking to a better palmist, who can predict the past
according to your likes and dislikes. 

Peace and Love

Shashi

From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta [mailto:shuddha at sarai.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:35 AM
To: Javed
Cc: Shashidhar; sarai list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists"

Dear Shashi, Javed and Prakash, 

Thanks for this interesting little exchange. One reason to demand that the
ASI report on Ayodhya be made a public document, because, it actually
suggests a lot going on 'below' the so-called Ram Janmabhoomi stratigraphic
layer. It is one of the reasons, as any ASI old timer will tell you, why,
the Ayodhya excavations were eventually abandoned and left incomplete by the
ASI establishment, which was always partial to the Hindutva lobby. 

 Hindutva advocates are actually quite uncomfortable with what is 'below'
the Ram Janmabhoomi layer, because it would probably expose, as you rightly
point out, the fact that the Ram Janmabhoomi layer is istelf founded on the
destruction of what came previous to it - probably Buddhist or Jain remains.
Now, if we take the faiths of those people who are not Hindus, but
Buddhists, Jains etc, seriously, then, we have to, by the logic of the
Alllahabad High Court judgement, actually prioritize those who might stake a
claim to the pre-Ram Janmabhoomi layer. 

Shashi says - "one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some shankara you will
know better" - actually the story of how the Buddha became absorbed into the
dashavatara of Vishnu pantheon is quite intriguing. A majority of the
puranic and shastric sources that make this claim, do so, with a strangely
twisted and perverted logic - and it goes somewhat like this - Vishnu was
incarnated as Buddha in order to preach a false doctrine (read Buddhism) to
the Asuras (demons) who had become very powerful through their diligent
prayers and sacrifices. The Asuras, persuaded by what the Buddha taught,
abandoned the Vedas, abandoned rituals and dogmas, and so, became weak and
lost all their potency. So, they could be defeated. Apparently, according to
some of these sources, Shankara, was an incarnation of Shiva, who then
arrived on earth to clean up the job that remained to be done once the false
doctrine of Buddhism had weakened the opponents of the devas (the gods). The
destruction of Buddhists shrines in India, of which there is ample evidence
in pre-Islamic times, needs to be seen against the context of this inventive
rationalization. 

If you want more details of how the revival of Vedic dharma required the
recasting of the Buddha as a great fraud (not something Buddhists have
reason to be very comfortable with, notwishtanding the contemporary Hindu
rights forced attempt at forging an artificial kinship with Buddhists) -
simply read - the chapter on the Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu in Wendy
Doniger O'Flaherty's excellent study - 'The Origin of Evil in Hindu
Mythology'  (University of California Press, 1980). 

The real problem that Buddhists and Jains have, vis-a-vis Hindu Hierarchs,
in this matter, is that unlike Hindutva-vadis, being the adherents of
essentially agnostic or atheistic religions, they have no god, no 'virajman
devta' (presiding deity) who can be used as a front and as a partner in the
setting up of  a convenient faith based real estate mafia through an equally
convenient exercise in up-country litigation, lock-breaking, trespass and
some sleight of hand (or should we say sleight of pickaxe and shovel)

best

Shuddha

On 12-Oct-10, at 11:09 PM, Javed wrote

Dear Shashi

You say science has proved there is no god, but you are still

concerned about the Hinduness of temples and neo-Buddhists. Why?

I did not conduct any research before posting this - I have only

forwarded a news item from the Daily Telegraph (its link is given at

the bottom). The problem is that I have a Muslim name, hence I

shouldn't be making such a comment (many people will kill me), but if

you go beyond the wikipedia knowlegde, you will come to know that

Gautam Buddha could never be the Dashavatara - he was himself agains

all sorts of avataras and deities and divinities. I don't need to read

wikipedia to know this. It would be good to ask the Dalits and

neo-Buddhists if they think they are Hindus.

thanks

Javed

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Shashidhar

<shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org> wrote:

Javed

All major hindu temples? Dalits and neo Buddhists are not hindus? Hindus
destroyed other hindu temples from sixth century BC to 13th Century AD,
Several Buddhist viharas were converted by placing hindu idols ( where when
how, one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some shankara you will know
better)

According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi,
Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples.

Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was
originally a Buddhist temple, he said.

Did you conduct any research before posting this.....

Read about tirupati, Palani and guruvayoor on something as simple as
Wikipedia and you will know a lot more. There are about 1000 temples in
Kashi which one is Mr. JP talking about...

Peace.

There is no god, science has proved it, there is no god and people who
believe in the power of prayer are at best delusional, it is though not
correct to twist and turn history to suit our present delusions.

Shashi

-----Original Message-----

From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net]
On Behalf Of Javed

Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:31 PM

To: sarai list

Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists"

Before Hindus and Muslims can decide on this matter, the dalits or
neo-Buddhists may like to stake their claim, since they believe all major
Hindu temples have been built after destroying ancient Buddhist sites.

Why didn't Mayawati think of building a memorial to Kanshi Ram on the
disputed Ayodhya site.

----

Return Hindu shrines: Dalits

OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

New Delhi, Oct. 8: Call it the Babri verdict fallout: a group of Dalit
rights activists has decided to approach the government demanding that
Buddha and Jain viharas that have been converted to Hindu temples should be
returned to the original owners.

The group, made up of Ambedkar followers, academics, advocates and
activists, has also decided to approach the Supreme Court with the demand.

Several Buddha and Jain viharas were there in the country from sixth century
BC to 13th century AD, which were later converted into Hindu temples by
placing idols in them, the group said.

Now that Allahabad High Court has given Hindus two-thirds of the land on
which Babri Masjid stood on the ground that there was a temple at the site
before the mosque was constructed, all those viharas should also be
returned, they argued.

According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi,
Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples.

Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was
originally a Buddhist temple, he said.

Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas were destroyed in India
between AD 830 and AD 966 in the name of Hindu revivalism, Jayaprakash said.
Literary and archaeological sources within and outside India speak of this,
he added.

Other members of the group include "Dalit Bandhu" N.K. Jose, Bhim Jayaraj
and Vijay Shekhar.

The group is planning to meet BSP chief Mayavati. "We hope that Mayavati,
whose vote bank is largely made up of Dalits and neo-Buddhists, will be
receptive to the idea. The issue is both political and religious - a deadly
concoction which no politician can afford to neglect," said one activist.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101009/jsp/nation/story_13037587.jsp

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Shuddhabrata Sengupta

The Sarai Programme at CSDS

Raqs Media Collective

shuddha at sarai.net

www.sarai.net

www.raqsmediacollective.net