[Reader-list] Fw: Re: Why Kashmir defies solutions

Wed Sep 8 15:32:21 IST 2010

Not at all.  Please see my reply to Inder Salim.

On 08/09/10 1:24 PM, "Jeebesh" <jeebesh at sarai.net> wrote:

> dear Sonia,

To ask questions and to judge are very different. No?

I was just
> curious if the quizzical ways in which you had mailed the  
posting about
> lines of young men joining the police could be stretched  
to other moments in
> near times. Somehow from your response it seems it  
cannot be. You somehow
> accept one as given and the other as strange.  
Still not sure how you make
> that distinction.

warmly
jeebesh

On 07-Sep-10, at 7:32 PM, SJabbar wrote:

>
> Why does questioning a phenomena be interpreted as mocking or being
>
> judgmental? You say, 'The maxim of the actors are always far more
>>
> complicated and illegible
> than the judgement of the spectator.
> '
>
> So
> the spectator must suspend judgment, must not question?  Then why  
> do you
>
> question when the state acts within its 'iron frame' inherited from  
> the
> ICS?
> Mysterious motives must also drive the one who drives you mad by  
>
> telling you
> he can't find your file or that you must pay a bribe to get a
> copy  
> of the
> challan which you thought due to you.
>
>
>
>
> On 07/09/10
> 7:21 PM, "Jeebesh" <jeebesh at sarai.net> wrote:
>
>> The so called iron frame of
> indian bureaucracy is produced by ICS
> officers.
>> It was more than getting
> on with life :)
>
> On Kashmir i understand very little
>> to be able to
> comment. But some
> comments seem to mock the people who are
>> trying to
> articulate
> something substantial. A little caution   about
>> interpreting
> quickly.
> The maxim of the actors are always far more
>> complicated and
> illegible
> than the judgement of the spectator.
>
> On
>> 07-Sep-10, at 6:32
> PM, SJabbar wrote:
>
>> Did they?  Or did they do what most
>> people do, make
> their peace with
>> the new
>> dispensation and get on with
>> life.
>>
>> The
> point is to understand how it is that a phenomena like 60,000
>>
>> young
> men
>> applying for 3,000 jobs can happen in the midst of what people
>>
> are
>> describing as a revolution. Can it be that they don't see the J&K
>>
>>
> Police as
>> an abhorrent force?  Can it be that they are the relatives of
> men
>>
>> who are
>> already in the JKP?  Can it be that they don't subscribe
> to
>> azadi?
>> And how
>> do the families of tens of thousands of men who are
> in
>> the JKP and
>> JAKLI see
>> their kin?
>>
>> Another puzzling matter:
> we speak
>> of the AFSPA and its revocation
>> but the
>> JKP is not protected
> by the Act.
>> And one more thing: the army, that
>> has
>> been responsible
> for the worst
>> human rights abuses in the last 2
>> decades is
>> not
> targeted by the
>> stone-pelters.  They continue their work of
>>
> patrolling
>> and cordon &
>> search operations as if they live on another
> planet.
>> The target
>> is
>> always the JKP.
>>
>>
>> On 07/09/10 6:06 PM,
> "Jeebesh" <jeebesh at sarai.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> agreed. but how come they all
> became unquestionable nationalists
>>
>>> after
>>>
>> 1947?
>>
>> On
> 07-Sep-10, at 5:41 PM, SJabbar wrote:
>>
>>> You're
>> right Jeebesh, and
>>>
> most people who were recruited were
>>> absolutely
>>>
>> loyal to the
> British
>>> Empire and deeply suspicious of the Congress.
>>> And
>> why
>>>
> just speak of the
>>> 20th c. ? In 1857 the country was deeply
>> divided
>>>
> and very
>>> few at the
>>> time articulated it as a 'war for
>>
> independence.'  It
>>> would be
>>> foolish to
>>> say that those who served
> the
>> British Empire were closet
>>> nationalists forced
>>> into furthering
> their
>> careers by joining the
>>> army or
>>> ICS.
>>>
>>>
>>> On
>>>
> 07/09/10 5:22 PM,
>> "Jeebesh" <jeebesh at sarai.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> recruitment
> in
>>> indian
>> subcontinent during the ww1 and ww2 for jobs in
>>> the
>>>>
> british army
>>> was
>> very high. what did this say about the aspiration
>>>
> and lives
>>>> being
>> led
>>> at that time in the sub continent. do we
> even
>>> count that number
>>>>
>> today in
>>> discussing 20s, 30s, 40s, in
> the sub
>>> continent?
>>>
>>> On
>> 07-Sep-10, at
>>>> 2:10
>>> PM, SJabbar
> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But Gowhar, what happens
>> when a man who hitherto
>>>>
>>>
> abhors an
>>>> institution joins
>>>> it? What
>> happens to that extreme
> emotion
>>>>
>>> when the line is crossed,
>>>> when
>> the
>>>> uniform is
> donned, when the
>>> 'danda'
>>>> drops firmly into his
>> hands?
>>>> By your
> logic all those who joined
>>> the force
>>>> post-1990 once
>> abhorred
>>>>
> the
>>>> institution and now have become
>>> the
>>>> oppressors.
>> And those
> who pelt
>>>> stones
>>>> at the oppressors now want
>>> to
>>>> join
>> the
> same hated institution only
>>>> to become
>>>> future oppressors?
>>>
>>
> Not
>>>> one, not two but 60,000 young men?  You may
>>>> understand this,
> but
>> I
>>> have to
>>>> tell you, it's left me totally
>>>>
> perplexed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On
>> 07/09/10
>>> 1:58 PM,
>>>> "gowhar fazli"
> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I don't
>>> like the
> heading
>>>> "Why Kashmir
>>>>> defies
>> solutions".
>>>>>
>>>>> It is
> in
>>>>>>
>>> these moments that the
>>>> real
>> desperation and loss
>>>>>
> of self of Kashmiris
>>> as a
>>>>>> people
>> becomes
>>>> evident. For
>>>>>
> livelihood they have to stoop
>>> before the
>> same
>>>>>>
>>>>
> institutions
>>>>> that torment them or that they abhor
>>> for
>>
> obvious
>>>> reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This contradiction that runs through
> their
>>>
>> very selves,
>>>>>
>>>> prevents people
>>>>>> from acquiring a
> full blown
>>>
>> human-hood.
>>>>>
>>>>> There should
>>>> be no guilt
> or
>>>>>> indignity
>> associated
>>> with
>>>>> acquiring of livelihood
>>>>
> through legitimate
>> means,
>>>>>> but
>>> this
>>>>> is the case one way or
> the other,
>>>> for most
>> people in
>>>>>
>>> Kashmir.
>>>>>> The boundaries
> between legitimate and
>>>>
>> illegitimate
>>>>> are
>>> dizzyingly
> fuzzy
>>>>>> because of the manner in which
>> the
>>>>>
>>>> selves are
>>>
> split.
>>>>>
>>>>> If not for any
>>>>>> other but for
>> the indignities
>>>>
> involved
>>> in
>>>>> the status quo that Kashmir
>> issue
>>>>>> should be
> resolved for
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> good.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Tue,
>> 9/7/10,
> SJabbar
>>>>>> <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
> From: SJabbar
>>>>>> <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject:
>>>>
>>>
>>
> [Reader-list] Why Kashmir defies
>>>>>> solutions
>>>>>> To:
> "Sarai"
>>>>
>>>
>> <reader-list at sarai.net>
>>>>>> Date: Tuesday,
>>>>>>
> September 7, 2010, 10:19
>>>
>> AM
>>>>>>
>>>> Printed from
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
> Khaki enemy? 60,000
>>>>>> Kashmiris
>> apply for
>>> 3,000
>>>> police
>>>>>
> jobs
>>>>>> M Saleem Pandit, TNN, Sep
>> 7,
>>>>>> 2010, 01.30am
>>>
> IST
>>>>>>
>>>> SRINAGAR: Despite reports of
>> desertions in its
> ranks
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> and
>>>>>> threats of
>>>> social
>>>>>>
>> boycott,
> J&K police has emerged as a big
>>> draw
>>>>>> for
>>>>>
>> young
>>>>>>
>>>>
> job hunters in
>>>>>> employment-starved
>>> Kashmir. Ignoring
>> calls
>>>>>>
> by
>>>>>
>>>> hardliners to
>>>>>> shun the khaki
>>>>>>
>>> force,
>> nearly
> 60,000 men applied
>>>>>> for
>>>> less than 3,000
>>>>> jobs
>>>>>> in
>>>
>>
> J&K police --
>>>>>> about 200 applicants for
>>>>>>
>>>> one
> constable's
>>>
>> post.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The applications piled up over the last
> few
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> months,
>>>>> about
>>>>>> the time when the
>>>>>>
> situation in the Valley
>>>
>> appeared
>>>> to
>>>>>> be spinning out
>>>>>
> of
>>>>>> control with the
>> cops
>>>>>>
>>> particularly being
>>>> at
> the
>>>>>> receiving end of public
>>>>>
>> wrath.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> J&K
> police DG Kuldeep
>>>> Khoda said
>>>>>> the
>> department
>>>>> has
>>>>>>
> received
>>> 58,975
>>>>>> applications,
>>>> against
>> 2,786
>>>>>>
> vacancies across the
>>>>>
>>> Valley.
>>>>>> "The response
>>
> from
>>>>>>
>>>> (the worst-hit)
>>>>>> Srinagar and
>>> Budgam districts
> was
>> even
>>>>> more
>>>>>>
>>>> heartening," he
>>>>>> said.
>>>>>>
>>>
> "We've received
>> 2,860 applications, against
>>>> 529
>>>>> posts
>>>>>>
> in
>>>
>> Srinagar
>>>>>>
>>>>>> district, while 8053 against 283 in
>>>>
> Budgam," he
>>>
>> said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lack of jobs
>>>>>> has been a big spur
> for the
>>>>
>> protests
>>>>>
>>> that
>>>>>> brought thousands
> of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> young educated
>> men on to the
>>>>
>>> streets.
> Official
>>>>> estimates of
>>>>>> the
>> number
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> unemployed
> in
>>> the
>>>> Valley stands at 3
>> lakhs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Khoda told
>>>>>>
> reporters the
>>> department held
>>>>
>> a
>>>>> recruitment
>>>>>> rally in
> Baramulla
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> district in July
>> and was
>>>> overwhelmed with
> the
>>>>> response.
>>>>>> "Over
>>> 8,000
>>>>>>
>> people
>>>>>> turned up
> for
>>>> 412 posts despite turmoil in the
>>>>>
>>>
>> district,"
>>>>>>
> he
>>>>>> said, and added
>>>>>>
>>>> that even stone-pelters
>>>
>> attended
> the rally. He said
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> department
>>>> was
>>>>>>
>>
> mulling
>>> more on-the-spot recruitment drives
>>>>>> across
>>>>>
> the
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> Valley,
>>> particularly
>>>>>> in Srinagar's downtown area
> to end
>>>>>>
>> the
>>>>
>>> unrest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The top cop rubbished
> reports on desertions
>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> insubordination. He
> claimed
>>>>>> no police personnel
>> had quit since
>>>>
>>> mid-June
>>>>>>
> when
>>>>> Kashmir
>>>>>> erupted in
>> anger
>>>>>> against the
>>>
> alleged
>>>> staged encounter
>>>>>> of three
>> north
>>>>> Kashmir
>>>>>>
> youth and
>>> a
>>>>>> 17-year-old
>>>> boy's killing
>> in
>>>>>> police
> action. Over 60
>>>>>
>>> people,
>>>>>> including
>> women
>>>>>>
>>>> and
> children, have
>>>>>> died in police
>>> firing on
>>>>>
>> protesters
>>>>>>
> since
>>>> then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> State
>>>>>> government
>>> sources
>> said J&K
> CM Omar
>>>>> Abdullah,
>>>> who
>>>>>> has called for a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
> proactive approach including the phased
>>>> revocation of
>>>>>
>>
> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> controversial
>>>>>> Armed Forces Special Forces
> Act
>>>> to
>> deal with
>>> street
>>>>>>
>>>>>> protests, has ordered
>>>>>>
> creation of more
>> police
>>>> jobs to
>>> induct youth from
>>>>>>
> the
>>>>>> troubled
>> areas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meanwhile, in
>>>> its
>>> ongoing
> drive to reach out
>>>>>>
>> to the
>>>>> people,
>>>>>> Kashmir
> range
>>>>>>
>>> IGP
>>>> Kashmir, S M Sahai,
>> attended
>>>>>>
> police-public
>>>>> meetings in
>>>>>>
>>> Ganderbal
>>>> and
>>>>>>
>> Budgam
> districts. "At
>>>>>> Ganderbal District Police
>>>>>
>>>
> Lines,
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> around 300 people
>>>>>> including senior
>>>>>>
> citizens and
>>> sarpanchs
>>>>
>> participated,"
>>>>> a
>>>>>> police
> spokesman
>>>>>> said.
>>>>>> "Sahai
>>>
>> assured the
>>>> people that
> police will
>>>>> adopt
>>>>>> maximum
>>>
>> restraint
>>>>>>
>>>>>> while
> dealing
>>>> with law and order
>>>
>> situations."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
> _________________________________________
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> >
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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