[Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in Kashmir

[anupam chakravartty]

Bipin,

I would not comment on Amnesty Intl position on the Iraq war. I appreciate
that you understand the value of freedom and specific denomination given to
this idea by the developing societies: that there is an underlying bitter
truth about freedom. I think this bitter truth is that freedom comes with
responsibility. Why are you "worried" about Kashmiris? If are you worried
that there are thousands of people, who have died during this conflict. Yes
that is worrisome. Then the resolution of the Kashmir dispute ought to be in
the way Kashmiris want it to be because my freedom here is not at stake, so
to speak of. Nor are yours. Nobody has told you that if you do not worry
about Kashmiris, they are going to bomb your establishment. So far, most of
the acts of terrorism targeting India have always been a list of demands
which have been reported to have originated from the militant sections of
Kashmiris were mostly about their freedom or the recognition of their
rights. From seeking the release of the political prisoners to the protests
or followed by attacks, seeking custody of a body murdered by a bunch of
security men. It has always been about their freedom, which has been
encroached by group of men. The political prisoners might be criminals or
murderers. I may not be in a position to dispute those charges. However,
their motivations do not change, even if we kill them. They are political
prisoners demanding sovereign state, threatening the Indian establishment on
every occasion when their rights are violated. However those who are
demanding that AFSPA should be withdrawn, I presume are also saying that the
ones who have left for the less trodden path could come home. So that the
elders could remind the younger ones to understand their responsibilities
along with this struggle to restore their rights. When there are doubts
about what rights do they have, what responsibility or bitter truths can we
discuss about Bipin on this list? Can the presence of gun wielding men
ensure such an atmosphere, where a discussion about rights vis-a-vis
responsibilities could take place? These questions have been raised not only
in case of Kashmir but also Manipur.

You are describing Geelani as foolish. But then Geelani has not said
anything about you or the position you hold. He is not even worried about
the other parts of India and expressed a satisfaction or dissatisfaction
over issue not related with Kashmir. And this debate, would you not consider
that if there exists an entity such as rogue Pakistan and very conversely,
in all its manifestations, there exists a rogue India. We might run out of
examples, if we consider the local Panchayat polls where rogue India thrives
in its particularity. To sum up, the territoriality of India cannot rest on
the idea that this territoriality or this integrity could be imposed if the
need arises. It is too weak an idea, will always be an impediment on
building a strong and critical foundation of this country. I am not in a
position to offer resolution for Kashmir or Manipur but a step forward would
be withdrawal of troops from the civilian areas. These are views are however
very personal and not meant to demean certain sacrifices of Indian troops or
rescue work that was carried out during calamities.

Thanks Anupam


On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:

> Anupam,
>
> Of course all the Indians must worry for their territory and preserve their
> boundary intact, what is wrong in it. We should not ready to get away our
> territory for the act of few foolish people like Geelani and  rogue
> Pakistan.
>
> But I am not making such stand for only territoriality of India. If that is
> the case than I would have not gone with that assumption even after
> achieving freedom……… I am equally worry for the Kashmiri people reflects in
> the statement "But after achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of
> Kashmir realizes that how the bitter truth is”. I am trying to alert the
> people that do not come in the trap of separatists just showing the
> lollipop
> of freedom without any optimistic future plan. After freedom your situation
> will be even worse. Please understand this. That’s all.
>
> I am talking about Amnesty dual attitude about US and others. US was
> planning for Iraq war before actual war by giving reasons that they possess
> chemical weapon and having terror infrastructure. Everyone knows that this
> was wrong reason and actual agenda is to capture their oil field. At that
> time why Amnesty keep mum. By their voice and if averted war than lot of
> life would have been saved.
>
> Thanks
> Bipin Trivedi
>
>
> From: anupam chakravartty [mailto:c.anupam at gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:48 PM
> To: Bipin Trivedi; sarai list
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement
> on Rising Deaths in Kashmir
>
> Bipin Trivedi
>
> Amnesty International may be flawed in its report, could you explain your
> comments on the collective destinies of lakhs of people ("But after
> achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of Kashmir realizes that how
> the bitter truth is. In that case after few years of azadi, I am sure
> Kashmiri people will start reverse agitation and urge India to free from
> separatist. They will agitate to join fully with Indian continent and if it
> happens, what will separatists do? I am sure it will going to happen if
> azadi is given to Kashmiri.")? It is very clear that you care for the
> territoriality of Indian state rather than its people and their
> aspirations.
> And a question to you, in the present times, having listened to all those
> who are asking for freedom, those who say we will 'safeguard' your freedom,
> those whose voices have never been heard but it is only now that after so
> many years that have had to come out on the streets to negotiate their own
> freedoms, what should be agenda of the state trying to negotiate such
> conflicts? should the preservation of territoriality of the state be on the
> agenda or consider the aspirations?
>
> is territoriality an important aspect of the present times? no please do
> not
> give me a lecture on security and safety of the state and its people,
> things
> about Islamic fundamentalism. we have had our share of prison breaks, of
> utterly dissatisfied people (living very much under the state's security
> perimeter) killing their neighbours in the most cold blooded manner. the
> reasons have been the same: he has a bigger car than mine. i think the idea
> of territoriality of the state arises from such a position.
>
>
>
> Moreover, why this comparison: "Where was Amnesty International when US
> attacked Iraq for their own interest of capturing Oil fields?" are you
> talking about kashmir or iraq? if you can make such comparisons, where are
> you when half of your nuclear facilities are going to be monitored by the
> Americans, post the deal? is it not a question of what you call "internal
> matter"? My idea here was not start another debate on nuclear deal but a
> message to people, including commentators here to not try and hijack the
> issue of Kashmir by citing various comparisons with situations that are
> remotely connected to the issue of Kashmir. As a witness to the debate
> about
> Kashmir, the resolution lies in understanding the uniqueness of this issue,
> not demonstrating your knowledge about similar issues. In terms of content,
> it may sound very exotic, shows well informed you are but logically flawed.
> I am convinced that territoriality of an already sovereign state is not the
> correct means to analyse the aspirations of a certain group of persons.
> Even
> if we say that they might have been misled, when you are in the side of the
> state, you cannot afford to be in a position to assert your own sovereignty
> over these people who do not feel the same way. You will be referred to as
> a
> tyrant, or a bully. I am sorry but I am also an Indian, and I cannot see
> the
> foundations on which this state was formed being violated by a few tyrants,
> who legitimately or illegitimately call themselves as rulers. These are
> very
> personal observations from what I have read or seen or discussed in last
> one
> and a half months with some of my friends, who held similar positions like
> yours Bipin.
>
> Thanks
> Anupam
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
> Where was Amnesty International when US attacked Iraq for their own
> interest
> of capturing Oil fields? Don't interfere in Indian internal matter and
> don't
> advise us anything. We will handle it. How to handle, whether to remove
> AFSPA or not, we will decide. So Amnesty, mind your own business and do not
> interfere.
>
> When Protesters try to disturbed the peace, what will the forces do? They
> are obeying their duty to restore the peace and in that whoever comes in
> between has to pay the penalty. When no human rights applicable to
> protesters, terrorists than why to armed forces?
>
> Today news was aired that NC and PDP wants yet more independent power in
> Kashmir. Is it the solution and the things will solve? Not at all. Crooked
> separatist like Geelani, Miwaiz, Yasin never accept anything than total
> freedom. Since they are staying in India physically but by heart they are
> Pakistani and Pakistan never let live them other than Kashmir freedom.
>
> What have separatists plan after getting freedom. Kashmir is totally
> depending on tourism and have they thought that after Kashmir becoming
> separate state, tourism will effect heavily. Kashmir as a separate state
> will bankrupt financially which you could not understand since at present
> India spent heavily for Kashmir. So after freedom, if they think that Pak
> will finance than they are mistaken, since Pak is already bagging from US,
> how can they help? So, like Pak you have to become bagger from US.
>
> For this movement, you must have taken granted the support of Jammu people
> than you are mistaken. Since, I am sure Jammu people will definitely prefer
> to stay with India. So, first you have to agree for the division of state
> and then go ahead with your freedom movement restricted to valley only.
>
> But after achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of Kashmir realizes
> that how the bitter truth is. In that case after few years of azadi, I am
> sure Kashmiri people will start reverse agitation and urge India to free
> from separatist. They will agitate to join fully with Indian continent and
> if it happens, what will separatists do? I am sure it will going to happen
> if azadi is given to Kashmiri.
>
> Thanks
> Bipin Trivedi
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net]
> On Behalf Of Nagraj Adve
> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 8:26 PM
> To: Sarai; Free Binayak Sen; ecological-democracy at lists.riseup.net
> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on
> Rising Deaths in Kashmir
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: gautam navlakha <gnavlakha at gmail.com>
> Date: 18 September 2010 20:24
> Subject: [pudr] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising
> Deaths in Kashmir
> To: activist <activist at pudr.org>, asish gupta <asishroop at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Khurram Parvez <khurramparvez at yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM
> Subject: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in
> Kashmir
> To: kparvez at kashmirprocess.org
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 9/17/10, iteam at amnesty.org <iteam at amnesty.org>* wrote:
>
>
> From: iteam at amnesty.org <iteam at amnesty.org>
> Subject: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in Kashmir
> To: iteam at amnesty.org
> Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 10:31 AM
>
> Dear friends
>
> Please find below a public statement about the on-going violence in Kashmir
>
> Best regards,
> South Asia Team
> Amnesty International
> International Secretariat
> 1 Easton Street
> London WC1X ODW
> United Kingdom
> Tel +44 (0) 20 7413 5500
> Fax +44 (0) 20 7956 1157
>
> http://www.amnesty.org
> http://www.asiapacific.amnesty.org
>
> *AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL* *
> PUBLIC STATEMENT*
>
> AI: Index: ASA20/027/2010
>
> 17 September 2010
>
> *
> India: Urgent need for Government to act as death toll rises in Kashmir*
>
> With an increasing death toll in protests in Kashmir, Amnesty International
> calls on the Indian authorities to take urgent steps to ensure respect for
> the right to life and to investigate past killings of demonstrators by
> police.
>
> With two more protestors shot dead today, Amnesty International urges the
> Indian government to immediately instruct the security forces not to use
> firearms against demonstrators,   Security forces should use the minimum
> force necessary to defend themselves or others against an imminent threat
> of
> death or serious injury. They should not employ intentional lethal use of
> firearms except where such use is strictly unavoidable in order to protect
> life.
>
> Ninety-six people have been killed since June when protests broke out in
> Jammu and Kashmir after the killings of three young men, reportedly by the
> security forces, in March.  The vast majority of these killings have been
> at
> the hands of police and paramilitary forces.
>
> An inquiry ordered by the authorities into 11 of the deaths by shooting in
> July has failed to make headway.  Amnesty International renews its call to
> the government to initiate an independent, impartial and thorough
> investigation into all the killings.  Members of the security forces
> responsible for excessive use of force in demonstrations should be brought
> to justice.
>
> In the last week alone, at least 23 people were killed and 80 others
> injured
> in shootings by the state police and the Central Reserve Police Force
> (CRPF)
> paramilitary personnel. Protestors defied curfew regulations, held
> demonstrations and often clashed with the security personnel.
>
> Protests in several places turned violent as demonstrators hurled stones at
> the security forces in the last week. Reports about threats to burn the
> Quran in the United States increased tensions.  Demonstrators attacked two
> Christian schools and a hospital, burning one of the schools.
>
> At the same time human rights activists in Srinagar told Amnesty
> International that on a number of occasions the security forces shot
> protestors who were throwing stones at them.
>
> A number of towns in the Kashmir valley including Srinagar have been under
> 24 hour curfew for the last five days.
>
> Information about these events has been restricted as a result of strict
> enforcement of the curfew regulations. Journalists have informed Amnesty
> International that, despite possessing curfew passes issued by the
> authorities, they have been prevented by the police and the paramilitary
> personnel from leaving their homes. With journalists unable to report on
> the
> situation, a number of regional television stations and newspapers have
> suspended their work.
>
> Any restrictions on the rights to freedom of movement or freedom of
> expression imposed for the protection of public order should only be such
> as
> are necessary and proportionate for that purpose and should be consistent
> with the state’s other human rights obligations. In view of the key role of
> journalists in facilitating exercise the right to freedom of expression,
> which includes the right to receive information.  Amnesty International
> calls on the Indian authorities to ensure that journalists can obtain
> curfew
> passes and are not harassed or otherwise obstructed while carrying out
> their
> professional functions of reporting and imparting information on issues of
> public concern.
>
> More public protests have been announced for 21 September by the All Party
> Hurriyat Conference (APHC), one of the largest political formations in
> Jammu
> and Kashmir.   This underlines the urgency for  the Indian authorities to
> instruct the security forces not to use lethal force when dealing with
> demonstrations.
>
> The demonstrations began in late May over the reported extrajudicial
> execution of three young men by the Army at Machil in Baramulla district.
> Protests increased after 17-year old Tufail Mattoo was killed by security
> forces in Srinagar during a demonstration on 11 June. They have intensified
> during repeated cycles of protests and further killings of demonstrators by
> security forces.
>
> The demonstrators have raised various concerns about the lack of
> accountability of the security forces; the withdrawal of Armed Forces
> (Jammu
> and Kashmir) Special Powers Act (AFSPA) 1958; the removal of Army camps –
> along with an underlying demand of independence for Kashmir.
>
> The AFSPA, which gives special powers of immunity to the security forces,
> has been in force in parts of Jammu and Kashmir since 1990. The Central
> Government is currently debating the withdrawal of the AFSPA from a few of
> its districts.
>
> One of the key demands of the state authorities and protesting
> organizations, namely the withdrawal of the AFSPA, does not appear to
> figure
> in the agenda of the all-party team from Delhi scheduled to visit Srinagar
> on 20 September.
>
> Under the AFSPA, soldiers are protected from any legal proceedings unless
> specifically sanctioned by the Central Government. This rarely happens in
> practice, allowing armed forces personnel to violate human rights with
> impunity.
>
> Ends/
>
>
> --
>
> Working to protect human rights worldwide
>
> DISCLAIMER
>
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