[Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal

Mon Sep 17 08:51:18 IST 2007

Dear Rahul,

One of the problems in our imagination of 'the
situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute all
violence to Pakistan which is really not the whole
picture. The Indian government carries out
state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I think it is
important to consider this when we discussion 'the
situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to 'the
problem'. Just as some people want Yasin Malik to
apologize in public for the wrongs he has done, I
would want the Indian government to openly accept and
apologize for the historical wrongs and the violence
it has perpetrated in the Valley. Without this
acceptance, the thought of any 'solution' is
incomplete and problematic in my line of thinking. 

You may choose to disagree with me on this.

The other thing which has been on my mind ever since
my first visit to Kashmir in 2002 is what is
'pragmatic' or what is 'idealistic' and who defines
these lines for Kashmir? I don't mean to get into a
philosophical discussion but in my point of view, how
non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the ideal?
If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to aspire
for the ideal and to dream, would not this world be a
very average/substandard place to live in? I would be
very unhappy living in a world like this!

Best,

Zainab

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:30:01 +0530, "Vishal Rawlley"
<vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Rahul,
> 
> After you posted your problems with
self-determination in Kashmir, I had
> replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a
question: we now know the
> problems you have pointed out, but we want to know
your proposed solution,
> can you post your answer please. Thank you.
> 
>>>
> In response to Rahul I had said:
> 
> Very well said. You have a right to your own
opinions and have provided
> good
> reasoning for it too. However, it does not
necessarily mean that everyone
> has to agree with you. Other people have a right to
their own viewpoints
> based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your
views. If you are
> convinced that your views are superior than others,
then its their loss
> that
> they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes
to decide the best
> viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile keep
refining your
> arguments.
> Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who
won't listen.
> 
> Many successive Indian governments have tried the
policy that you are
> propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So now
what to do? What is
> the
> correct solution? Can you put it down step by step,
just like you put down
> all the problems point by point?
> 
> Now Shuddha and some others proposed their solution,
which was: withdrawal
> of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian
and under Pakistani
> occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the space
to decide - after
> considering all the problems that you mentioned -
whether they want to be
> independent or be with either country (entirely or
partly, as in partly
> autonomous).
> 
> I do not know this if solution of theirs will work,
what do you think?
> Maybe
> this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide and
they might kill each
> other some more before they arrive at a plan. But at
least they will not
> be
> able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems
better than wasting our
> money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us
forcefully.
> 
> Do you have a better plan? Tell us please.
> 
> -Vishal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>> I do not see the email shveta replied to in the
>> list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my
>> response to Vishal and it has my argument as to why
>> the nation may resort to censorship in some
cases-to
>> be specific,why it would censor something that
>> promotes self determination in Kashmir.
>> Here goes again.If it was already posted to the
>> list,my apologies.
>>
>> Hi Vishal,
>> That was a great post.I mean the original one.I
find
>> my faculties of expression inadequate to connect to
>> passionate people in general and ladies in
>> particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit of
>> "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again.
>> Now,many people think that A united and independent
>> Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just solution
to
>> this 60 year old dispute.
>> This is a very  appreciable sentiment, but I dont
>> think that is gonna happen.It may be just too, but
who
>> are the stakeholders in such type of a
>> solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required
here.
>> What I or you think should happen, would not affect
>> reality one bit.
>> Nations dont work on such canonical moral
>> principles.For getting anywhere near to the
solution
>> of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip
with
>> realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit
from
>> an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir
itself.As
>> for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN
>> reiterates a policy of non interference and
>> bilateralism.Neither can any side (India \pak)bomb
the
>> other party to come to a solution. Nor can any
country
>> bleed the other to a point of submission by
terrorism
>> etc.
>> Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India
>> a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in the
>> North East,
>> b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and
India
>> would not be comfortable with that going in a
>> different country.
>> c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not
to
>> try to usurp any further territory.
>> d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a
>> disputed territory and if any party is perceived to
go
>> soft on Kashmir, it would have a very difficult
time
>> to get elected again.
>> So , from India`s view point,plesbicite just aint
>> gonna happen at the cost of whatever armtwisting it
>> may have to do or it may have to tolerate.
>> I dont know much about Pakistani politics but there
is
>> the one water treaty,for them to have reservations
in
>> wanting an independent Kashmir. I dont know what
>> interest or logic Pakistan has in supporting those
>> Islamist terrorist organisations,though, or whether
>> there is an internal political spin to it.
>> Coming to Kashmir itself, it is a landlocked region
>> with scant resources. If it does become a sovereign
>> state,it will also have problems with its non
uniform
>> demographics. There would always be some sort of
>> strife in it.A referendum of 60-40 in the favour of
an
>> option would only guarantee the continuation of
some
>> kind of trouble in the region.
>> So, referendum, as far as I can see,is almost
>> impossible pragmatically.India, unilaterally, would
>> not allow it to happen,without consideration for
>> Pakistan or Kashmiri`s interests.
>> Not to say that all the people dont have a stake in
>> the solution of the problem.Most of all the
Kashmiris.
>> Then Pakistan and India(gas pipeline and defense
>> expenditure). A solution is a win win option for
>> everybody.Concerned parties should be realistic and
>> pragmatic,instead of just keeping on with their
>> idealism;because its a matter of life and death for
>> many people.
>> And,above all , all concerned parties should drop
this
>> holier-than-thou charade of self determination, and
>> come to a sensible solution which is acceptable to
>> everyone,and everyone will have to budge from their
>> stated positions.
>> By the way,I am not batting for anyone.As much as I
>> know myself,which is not much anyway,If I had been
a
>>
Pakistani\Kashmiri\Icelandic\Hindu\Muslim\Rastafarian\Lennonist(Imagine
>> theres no country)\Leninist\charsi etc.. my opinion
>> would have been the same.
>> regards
>> Rahul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
>> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small
Business gives you
> all
>> the tools to get online.
>> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and
the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to
reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe:
https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive:
<https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and
the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to
reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe:
https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

Zainab Bawa 
Mumbai 

www.xanga.com/citybytes

      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 