[Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal

[Rahul Asthana]

Dear Zainab,
The reason why I mentioned Pakistan is that I was
trying to delineate the stakeholders in the valley.
I don't hold the view that all resistance to
occupation in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored.I agree
that there is state sponsored terrorism.
I have no comment on stunts like apology.Thats why I
did not take part in that debate.It does not matter to
me who apologized to whom or not;and it does not
matter to the people who get killed and raped.
Now your third point.Please find my reply inline.
I don't mean to get into a
> philosophical discussion but in my point of view,
> how
> non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the
> ideal?
> If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to
> aspire
> for the ideal and to dream, would not this world be
> a
> very average/substandard place to live in?

Don't you think you are being reductionist here?Any
idea of pragmatism or romanticism does not exist in a
vacuum.One doesn't become a romantic just for the heck
of it.At least I don't.Please,lets not be highfalutin 
about it.Its a matter of people getting killed.If your
romanticism gives the world one more poet like Agha
Shahid Ali,whom i greatly admire by the way,and my
pragmatism gives me a new generation that can grow up
in a non-police state;which would you prefer?
Lets talk in terms of whats plausible;achievable in
the short term;isn't 60 years time enough?

regards
Rahul

--- Zainab Bawa <zainabbawa at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dear Rahul,
> 
> One of the problems in our imagination of 'the
> situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute all
> violence to Pakistan which is really not the whole
> picture. The Indian government carries out
> state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I think it
> is
> important to consider this when we discussion 'the
> situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to 'the
> problem'. Just as some people want Yasin Malik to
> apologize in public for the wrongs he has done, I
> would want the Indian government to openly accept
> and
> apologize for the historical wrongs and the violence
> it has perpetrated in the Valley. Without this
> acceptance, the thought of any 'solution' is
> incomplete and problematic in my line of thinking. 
> 
> You may choose to disagree with me on this.
> 
> The other thing which has been on my mind ever since
> my first visit to Kashmir in 2002 is what is
> 'pragmatic' or what is 'idealistic' and who defines
> these lines for Kashmir? I don't mean to get into a
> philosophical discussion but in my point of view,
> how
> non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the
> ideal?
> If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to
> aspire
> for the ideal and to dream, would not this world be
> a
> very average/substandard place to live in? I would
> be
> very unhappy living in a world like this!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Zainab
> 
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:30:01 +0530, "Vishal Rawlley"
> <vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Rahul,
> > 
> > After you posted your problems with
> self-determination in Kashmir, I had
> > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you a
> question: we now know the
> > problems you have pointed out, but we want to know
> your proposed solution,
> > can you post your answer please. Thank you.
> > 
> >>>
> > In response to Rahul I had said:
> > 
> > Very well said. You have a right to your own
> opinions and have provided
> > good
> > reasoning for it too. However, it does not
> necessarily mean that everyone
> > has to agree with you. Other people have a right
> to
> their own viewpoints
> > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose your
> views. If you are
> > convinced that your views are superior than
> others,
> then its their loss
> > that
> > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day comes
> to decide the best
> > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile
> keep
> refining your
> > arguments.
> > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those who
> won't listen.
> > 
> > Many successive Indian governments have tried the
> policy that you are
> > propounding. Somehow it has not been working. So
> now
> what to do? What is
> > the
> > correct solution? Can you put it down step by
> step,
> just like you put down
> > all the problems point by point?
> > 
> > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their
> solution,
> which was: withdrawal
> > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under Indian
> and under Pakistani
> > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the
> space
> to decide - after
> > considering all the problems that you mentioned -
> whether they want to be
> > independent or be with either country (entirely or
> partly, as in partly
> > autonomous).
> > 
> > I do not know this if solution of theirs will
> work,
> what do you think?
> > Maybe
> > this way Kashmiris will take very long to decide
> and
> they might kill each
> > other some more before they arrive at a plan. But
> at
> least they will not
> > be
> > able to blame anyone but themselves. This seems
> better than wasting our
> > money and manpower in keeping Kashmir with us
> forcefully.
> > 
> > Do you have a better plan? Tell us please.
> > 
> > -Vishal
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 9/16/07, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >> I do not see the email shveta replied to in the
> >> list,strangely.So I am reposting this.This is my
> >> response to Vishal and it has my argument as to
> why
> >> the nation may resort to censorship in some
> cases-to
> >> be specific,why it would censor something that
> >> promotes self determination in Kashmir.
> >> Here goes again.If it was already posted to the
> >> list,my apologies.
> >>
> >> Hi Vishal,
> >> That was a great post.I mean the original one.I
> find
> >> my faculties of expression inadequate to connect
> to
> >> passionate people in general and ladies in
> >> particular;so I had taken a break.In the spirit
> of
> >> "hawa aane de..yaar",I am tempted to post again.
> >> Now,many people think that A united and
> independent
> >> Kashmir for all Kashmiris is the only just
> solution
> to
> >> this 60 year old dispute.
> >> This is a very  appreciable sentiment, but I dont
> >> think that is gonna happen.It may be just too,
> but
> who
> >> are the stakeholders in such type of a
> >> solution.?Honesty of individuals is not required
> here.
> >> What I or you think should happen, would not
> affect
> >> reality one bit.
> >> Nations dont work on such canonical moral
> >> principles.For getting anywhere near to the
> solution
> >> of Kashmir, it is very necessary to get to grip
> with
> >> realities.Neither India nor Pakistan will benefit
> from
> >> an independent Kashmir. Neither will Kashmir
> itself.As
> >> for UN,the resolutions are not mandatory and UN
> >> reiterates a policy of non interference and
> >> bilateralism.Neither can any side (India
> \pak)bomb
> the
> >> other party to come to a solution. Nor can any
> country
> >> bleed the other to a point of submission by
> terrorism
> >> etc.
> >> Lets examine India`s stakes in Kashmir.For India
> >> a) it will have a bad effect on insurgencies in
> the
> >> North East,
> >> b)Ladakh is a strategic location wrt China, and
> India
> >> would not be comfortable with that going in a
> >> different country.
> >> c) Distrust of Pakistan( or its dictators) to not
> to
> >> try to usurp any further territory.
> >> d) Majority of Indians do not regard Kashmir as a
> >> disputed territory and if any party is perceived
> to
> 
=== message truncated ===



       
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