[Reader-list] Self determination in Kashmir-reply to Vishal

[Pawan Durani]

Zainab,

Which election did Rajiv Gandhi rig in 1980 ? Plz enlighten me !

Pawan


On 9/18/07, Zainab Bawa <zainabbawa at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Rahul,
>
> Thanks for responding. This is my personal view that
> when it comes to historical wrongs, one cannot simply
> 'jump' to a solution without a certain process of
> acknowledgment of wrongs and forgiveness. A live
> example was the Truths Commission in South Africa.
> Now, someone might say that that was a case of racism
> and therefore it does not apply to our situation. My
> disagreement on this is simply that if two decades of
> wrongs and violence have been inflicted on Kashmir and
> Kashmiris by the Indian army and the government of
> India, you cannot say 'forget it, let's talk of
> solutions'. It is like the situation in Gujarat where
> the Modi government did not acknowledge the wrongs it
> had committed and after the violence, 'it was business
> as usual'. In this case, the memories of violence and
> injustice remain repressed and you never know when
> there will be another outburst! What solution are we
> then talking about?
>
> Acknowledging wrongs is the first step towards a
> solution. Once the Indian government acknowledges what
> it has done in Kashmir, it is also sending a message
> which says, 'we are willing to listen and talk it out
> sincerely and see how best we can resolve the
> situation.' I don't think an apology in this case is a
> mere stunt. It is a clear political statement.
>
> On the issue of freedom for Kashmir and pragmatism and
> romanticism, the point is that for our individual
> lives, we decide ideals and struggle to achieve them
> despite people around us calling us mad or dreamers.
> But when it comes to a people who have clear
> justification for wanting independence, what is it
> that leads us to say, 'be practical man!'? Why cannot
> a community of people demand the ideal? And what is
> our fear of accepting that as a standard? Is the fear
> that there will be more violence and bloodhsed and
> more poets like Aga? If that is the fear, then we are
> still going round and round the bush and a solution in
> this case (i.e. denying a group of people their right
> to aspire for the ideal), we are talking of something
> similar to what Rajiv Gandhi did back in the 1980s by
> rigging the elections.
>
> Best,
>
> Zainab
>
>
> --- Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Rahul,
> >
> > What you've said in the past few posts makes
> > admirable sense. For a solution
> > to work, ALL the stakeholders have to be involved,
> > else the left out party
> > will remain in a state of denial against the
> > agreement.
> >
> > And I certainly agree that there's been more than
> > enough death and
> > suffering, which needs to be stopped.
> >
> > Look forward to your detailed mail.
> >
> > Rgds, Partha
> > ...............
> >
> > On 9/18/07, Rahul Asthana <rahul_capri at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Zainab,
> > > The reason why I mentioned Pakistan is that I was
> > > trying to delineate the stakeholders in the
> > valley.
> > > I don't hold the view that all resistance to
> > > occupation in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored.I
> > agree
> > > that there is state sponsored terrorism.
> > > I have no comment on stunts like apology.Thats why
> > I
> > > did not take part in that debate.It does not
> > matter to
> > > me who apologized to whom or not;and it does not
> > > matter to the people who get killed and raped.
> > > Now your third point.Please find my reply inline.
> > > I don't mean to get into a
> > > > philosophical discussion but in my point of
> > view,
> > > > how
> > > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the
> > > > ideal?
> > > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to
> > > > aspire
> > > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world
> > be
> > > > a
> > > > very average/substandard place to live in?
> > >
> > > Don't you think you are being reductionist
> > here?Any
> > > idea of pragmatism or romanticism does not exist
> > in a
> > > vacuum.One doesn't become a romantic just for the
> > heck
> > > of it.At least I don't.Please,lets not be
> > highfalutin
> > > about it.Its a matter of people getting killed.If
> > your
> > > romanticism gives the world one more poet like
> > Agha
> > > Shahid Ali,whom i greatly admire by the way,and my
> > > pragmatism gives me a new generation that can grow
> > up
> > > in a non-police state;which would you prefer?
> > > Lets talk in terms of whats plausible;achievable
> > in
> > > the short term;isn't 60 years time enough?
> > >
> > > regards
> > > Rahul
> > >
> > > --- Zainab Bawa <zainabbawa at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Rahul,
> > > >
> > > > One of the problems in our imagination of 'the
> > > > situation' in Kashmir is that we attribute all
> > > > violence to Pakistan which is really not the
> > whole
> > > > picture. The Indian government carries out
> > > > state-sponsored terrorism in the Valley. I think
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > important to consider this when we discussion
> > 'the
> > > > situation' in Kashmir and 'solutions' to 'the
> > > > problem'. Just as some people want Yasin Malik
> > to
> > > > apologize in public for the wrongs he has done,
> > I
> > > > would want the Indian government to openly
> > accept
> > > > and
> > > > apologize for the historical wrongs and the
> > violence
> > > > it has perpetrated in the Valley. Without this
> > > > acceptance, the thought of any 'solution' is
> > > > incomplete and problematic in my line of
> > thinking.
> > > >
> > > > You may choose to disagree with me on this.
> > > >
> > > > The other thing which has been on my mind ever
> > since
> > > > my first visit to Kashmir in 2002 is what is
> > > > 'pragmatic' or what is 'idealistic' and who
> > defines
> > > > these lines for Kashmir? I don't mean to get
> > into a
> > > > philosophical discussion but in my point of
> > view,
> > > > how
> > > > non-pragmatic is it to dream and aspire for the
> > > > ideal?
> > > > If all of us were to be pragmatic and afraid to
> > > > aspire
> > > > for the ideal and to dream, would not this world
> > be
> > > > a
> > > > very average/substandard place to live in? I
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > very unhappy living in a world like this!
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Zainab
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:30:01 +0530, "Vishal
> > Rawlley"
> > > > <vishal.rawlley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Dear Rahul,
> > > > >
> > > > > After you posted your problems with
> > > > self-determination in Kashmir, I had
> > > > > replied to you (pasted below). I had asked you
> > a
> > > > question: we now know the
> > > > > problems you have pointed out, but we want to
> > know
> > > > your proposed solution,
> > > > > can you post your answer please. Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > >>>
> > > > > In response to Rahul I had said:
> > > > >
> > > > > Very well said. You have a right to your own
> > > > opinions and have provided
> > > > > good
> > > > > reasoning for it too. However, it does not
> > > > necessarily mean that everyone
> > > > > has to agree with you. Other people have a
> > right
> > > > to
> > > > their own viewpoints
> > > > > based their own reasoning. Try not to impose
> > your
> > > > views. If you are
> > > > > convinced that your views are superior than
> > > > others,
> > > > then its their loss
> > > > > that
> > > > > they do not get your viewpoint. When the day
> > comes
> > > > to decide the best
> > > > > viewpoint you shall undoubtedly win. Meanwhile
> > > > keep
> > > > refining your
> > > > > arguments.
> > > > > Do not waste you energy in arguing with those
> > who
> > > > won't listen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Many successive Indian governments have tried
> > the
> > > > policy that you are
> > > > > propounding. Somehow it has not been working.
> > So
> > > > now
> > > > what to do? What is
> > > > > the
> > > > > correct solution? Can you put it down step by
> > > > step,
> > > > just like you put down
> > > > > all the problems point by point?
> > > > >
> > > > > Now Shuddha and some others proposed their
> > > > solution,
> > > > which was: withdrawal
> > > > > of armed forces form both Kashmirs - under
> > Indian
> > > > and under Pakistani
> > > > > occupation. That should give the Kashmiris the
> > > > space
> > > > to decide - after
> > > > > considering all the problems that you
> > mentioned -
> > > > whether they want to be
> > > > > independent or be with either country
> > (entirely or
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> Zainab Bawa
> Mumbai
>
> www.xanga.com/citybytes
>
>
>
>
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