[Reader-list] China detains 35 Pak nationals for planning attack on Games
Shuddhabrata Sengupta
shuddha at sarai.net
Fri Aug 22 01:29:12 IST 2008
Dear Kshemendra,
Thank you for your contribution to the debate on China on the Reader
List. While all of us watch the spectacle being manufactured with
regard to the Olympics, the fact that this list should be paying some
attention to what goes on in China is welcome, and I hope your
contributions will spur us all on to shedding a little bit of the
'Indo-Centrism' and even the 'Kashmir-Centrism' that this list is
sometimes beseiged by at times, both with and without reason. Let us
recognize, for instance, that the spectacle of the Olympics itself is
produced through a massive machine that rests on the oppression and
invisiblization of the poor and angry people of China. We should have
no doubts about the fact that this is the crudest and most violent
form of propganda available for a repressive state.
I have no doubt at all about the fact that China is one of the most
repressive states in the world. But Chinese society, like the social
terrain of any country, is not co-terminus with the state, or with
those who lead the state. I recall, that a few months ago, when the
repression in Tibet was in focus, this list did actually respond, and
Sonia Jabbar, I and some other people did actually have a fairly
extensive discussion on repression in China. And even today, China is
riven with protest and dissidence, that is suppressed by the ruling
Chinese Communist Party and generally overlooked by the global Media,
which is mesmerised by what it chooses to see of China. I had even
posted some information about the activities of dissidents within
China, who were supporting the cause of those vilified as 'Tibetan
Separatists' by the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. In
this I see a parallel to the way in which the global press nowadays
handles India. But this list has not shied away from attending to
what has happened and continues to happen in China. I do agree with
you that it should attend more, and with greater care, not just to
China, but to repression in Pakitan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Burma,
Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.We have had reports and postings from
Bangladesh and Pakistan, (from Shambhu Rahmat and from Yasir) and the
repression in Baluchistan, (including the assasination of Bugti) has
actually figured on the discussion in this list. But of course, there
should be more. Much more. And we should not have to be discussiing
repression alone, we can also be discussing issues to do with
aesthetics, contemporary urban spaces, the environment, sexuality,
technology, philosophy and a whole gamut of issues that do not
necessarily begin and end with Kashmir and India. And of course, we
must discuss Kashmir, India and the adventures of the word 'Azaadi'
In fact, even if you look at the early history of this list, it has
actually looked at China, and condemned the climate of repression
that persists there. See for example -
https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2001-April/000039.html
For a post that argues against Internet censorship in China, and this
post is from April 2001, barely within a month of the founding of
this list. As someone who cut some of their public teeth by being
present at a thinly attended demonstration against the massacre at
Tienanmen Square in 1989 on the road to the Chinese embassy as a
young student, I have seldom required reasons
You say,
> There have not been any significant or extensively advertised
> adverse reactions out of India either. Not from GOI, not from the
> Muslims of India, not from "that class" who are quick and ever
> willing to support the separatists in Indian Kashmir and who is so
> very well represented and articulate in SARAI. These bunches (from
> India) are for that matter most times also mute about how Pakistan
> treats it's Muslims and "seekers of freedom from Pakistan".
I am afraid I have to differ from you on this. Since, I am one of
those who probably gets counted as being from "that class" who are
quick and willing to denounce the Indian state's actions in Kashmir,
let me state categorically, that I think that the Pakistani state has
an absolutely shameful record when it comes to dealing with
minorities (be they non-muslims, Shi'a, or Ahmediays). I do not for a
moment condone the way in which the Pakistani state has actively
carried out genocidial policies in erstwhile East Pakistan,
Balochistan, has colluded with repression in Sind, and indeed in the
Northern Territories and in that ironic euphemism known as 'Azad
Kashmir'. My crtiicism of the Indian state's policies does not make
me oblivious to the fact that Paksitan has been under brutal military
dictatorships, and I find it sad, that commentators in India should
even express an ersatz nostalgia already at the departure of Pervez
Musharraf, who, like Zia Ul Haq, Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan represented
what I find most reprehensible about military dictatorship.
Let me, in conclusion, also point out to you that another of the
current pet hates of many 'patriots' within this country, Arundhati
Roy, has publicly denounced the repression within China and
imperialist policies of the Chinese state vis a vis Tibet, including
in fora that have taken place in Hong Kong, (now a part of China) at
meetings of human rights and labour activists. I can vouch for this
as I have met witnesses who were present at these meetings, and can
quote the text by her that was read out after a recent visit by her
to China. I know that you are not and have not singled her out, but I
say this because often, I see her name being dragged into debates
without an informed understanding of her postions, and for me this is
an example of exactly what goes wrong with these pseudo-debates.
(Which are not debates, but exercises in unilateral calumny)
The fact that the mainstream Indian press does not report these facts
about Roy's publicly stated positions is a signal of its own Indo-
Centrism, but that does not make them less true. When those who
expostulate from media pulpits launch their broadsides against
someone like Roy, they do so, usually without taking into account the
fact that her interest is not in condemning India per se, but in
condemning oppression wherever it occurs, be it in Iraq, Turkey (she
has spoken out in Turkey,against the genocide of Christian
Armenians, by Muslim Turks, so you can hardly fault her for being
soft on 'Muslims' and 'Muslim' countries, and this at least has been
published in an mainstream indian news magazine, though no one seems
to have noticed) the United States or China. I too, like you, wish
there were many more people who would do the same, and with as much
forthrightness and condour.
Once again, I thank you for bringing up these questions for debate on
this list, but, assure you that "the class" you single out for
criticism in your far more posting is a far more complex entity that
what a one dimensional understanding of it would have you believe. I
hope that you will recognize this and not be as prepared as you have
been in this instance to jump to hasty, and if I may suggest,
unwarranted conclusions.
regards
Shuddha
>
On 21-Aug-08, at 7:28 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote:
> Dear Lalit
>
> As long as Pakistan finds it crucial to have excellent relations
> with China, there is little likelihood of the Xinjiang (Sinkiang)
> separatist movement posing any heightened threat to China.
>
> Of course there will be incidents like the killing of 16 Chinese
> Chinese Police personnel a few days before the start of the Beijing
> Olympics for which the Xinjiang separatists were blamed. But the
> usual thrust provided to Islamic Separatist Movements out of
> Pakistan will be minimal unless it suits Pakistan to act otherwise.
>
> China has acted very ruthlessly a number of times against the
> Xinjiang separatists. This has included demolition of settlements
> (residential and business) and also Mosques.
>
> What has been interesting is that such actions of China against the
> Muslims and Mosques has never brought forth angry condemnation from
> Pakistan. Not ever from the Govt of Pakistan and rarely from the
> Muslims of Pakistan.
>
> There have not been any significant or extensively advertised
> adverse reactions out of India either. Not from GOI, not from the
> Muslims of India, not from "that class" who are quick and ever
> willing to support the separatists in Indian Kashmir and who is so
> very well represented and articulate in SARAI. These bunches (from
> India) are for that matter most times also mute about how Pakistan
> treats it's Muslims and "seekers of freedom from Pakistan".
>
> Xinjiang continues to be a Muslim Majority region of China. They
> are predominantly of Uyghur ethnicity. Slim majority though. At
> least now.
>
> "Demographic changes and balances" has been much in the news in the
> past weeks (Amarnath- Hindus-Kashmir- India). Apparently the Han
> (Non-Muslim) Chinese were about 6% of the population of Xinjiang in
> 1949. Recent enumerations put them at over 40%. And, to quote "This
> figure does not include military personnel or their families, or
> the many unregistered migrant workers." How is that for
> "demographic change"?
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] China detains 35 Pak nationals for
> planning attack on Games
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 6:10 PM
>
>
>
>
> #yiv1698088668 .hmmessage P
> {
> margin:0px;padding:0px;}
> #yiv1698088668 {
> FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;}
>
> It will be interesting to see how pan Islamists manage to
> penetrate China. After Kashmir is it Xinjiang on the radar now? It
> is hoped China would succeed where India failed.
> LA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:44:58 -0700
>> From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> Subject: [Reader-list] China detains 35 Pak nationals for planning
>> attack on Games
>>
>> China detains 35 Pak nationals for planning attack on Games
>>
>>
>> ISLAMABAD: Thirty-five Pakistan nationals on a visit to China for
>> the Olympics have been detained on suspicion of planning to attack
>> the Games proceedings, a media report said on Wednesday.
>>
>> The Chinese government has sought the details of the 35 suspects
>> from Pakistan in a letter that claims that they had arrived in
>> China to attack proceedings at the ongoing Games, Daily Times
>> reported.
>>
>> The paper said Colonel Anjum Sheikh Saeed of the Foreign Security
>> Department wrote to the Interior Ministry on August 18 asking the
>> authorities concerned to collect details of those detained.
>>
>> It said the Chinese government has not released the names of those
>> held, but has given the names and passport numbers of 13 others.
>>
>> In Beijing, an official spokesperson declined to confirm the
>> report saying he did not have information on the issue.
>>
>> "I don't have information yet (on this issue.) But I will check
>> for you," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson, Qin Gang told
>> reporters when asked to confirm the Pakistani media report.
>>
>> In the past, Beijing has demanded Islamabad crack down on
>> separatists from its restive Xinjiang region, who are getting
>> "trained" in Pakistani terror camps.
>>
>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/
>> China_detains_35_Pak_nationals/articleshow/3385671.cms
>>
>>
>>
>> var RN = new String (Math.random());
>> var RNS = RN.substring (2,11);
>> b2 = ' ';
>> if (doweshowbellyad==1)
>> bellyad.innerHTML = b2;
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net
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