[Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces

Sat Sep 20 16:03:16 IST 2008

Good thoughts, Shuddha, I grieve with you and share your thoughts.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 3:54 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces
To: Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>

> Dear Pawan,
> 
> The people who sent Col.Jojan Thomas to die in Kashmir  (his 
> masters  
> in Delhi) also claim that they enjoy the hospitality and support 
> of  
> the people of Kashmir. They always maintain that there is no  
> occupation, that the Indian army is in Kashmir only because the  
> people of Kashmir want them there. So, everyone seems to claim the 
> 
> support and hospitality of the 'crowds' of Kashmir. Its just that 
> no  
> one has as yet thought it fit to ask these 'crowds' quite how far  
> they want to stretch their hospitality.
> 
> Since the people of Kashmir have been 'hospitable' to around 
> 700,000  
> Indian soldier 'guests' for around two decades, I suppose they 
> also  
> extend their hospitality. from time to time, to a few 'other' 
> guests.  
> Both kinds of 'hospitality' seem to me to be extracted on gunpoint.
> 
> I grieve for Col Thomas as much as I grieve for every Indian 
> soldier,  
> (some of whom kill themselves because they cannot bear being made 
> to  
> do the things that they are made to do in Kashmir) as much as I  
> grieve for every dead and tortured insurgent (of whatever 
> nationality).
> A death is never an occasion for joy. But most of all I grieve for 
> 
> the 'hospitable' people of Kashmir, who dig the graves, watch the  
> coffins, bear the brunt of every pain, no matter who dies. The 
> dead  
> in Kashmir are also their guests, and these guests will haunt them 
> 
> for a very long time. I hope that one day, the ghosts, and their  
> hosts, can learn to exist in each other's shadow without fear or pain.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Shuddha
> 
> 
> On 20-Sep-08, at 3:32 PM, Pawan Durani wrote:
> 
> > Dear Shuddha,
> > Do you mean to say that the people who killed Col Thomas do not  
> > enjoy the
> > hospitality and support of the "crowds" of Kashmir ?
> >
> > Pawan
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta  
> > <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:
> >
> >> Pawan,
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't treat news of death as reasons for laughter, no matter 
> who  
> >> dies.
> >>
> >>
> >> The Col. Thomas who died in Kashmir did not die at the hands of 
> 
> >> the crowds
> >> on the streets of Kashmir. He died while on an operation, in  
> >> combat, exactly
> >> as  an insurgent dies in combat, while on an  operation. As one 
> 
> >> armed man
> >> taken out by other armed men.
> >>
> >>
> >> See -
> >>
> >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/24/stories/2008082457840100.htm
> >>
> >>
> >> The report says - "Col. Thomas was killed as he led a quick  
> >> reaction team
> >> from 45 Rashtriya Rifles in the dense forests of Macchal 
> sector,  
> >> near the
> >> Line of Control. His team shot down six militants and he was 
> one  
> >> of the four
> >> Indian soldiers who were killed in the battle."
> >>
> >>
> >> I regret all such deaths, whether they be of Col. Jojan Thomas, 
> or  
> >> Mohan
> >> Chand Sharma, or of a named or nameless insurgent, and consider 
> 
> >> them to be
> >> lives wasted in a senseless war. The only way to stop deaths 
> like  
> >> these is
> >> to stop this war. I want this war to end.
> >>
> >>
> >> The two policemen who died in Jammu happened to be lynched by 
> the  
> >> crowds on
> >> the streets of Jammu. They were not killed by militants in 
> dense  
> >> forests.
> >> The mob killed because it had a sense that it could act with  
> >> impunity. They
> >> were not acting in self defence either. In this case, the mob 
> was not
> >> retaliating for violence inflicted upon it.
> >>
> >>
> >> See -
> >> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/PoliticsNation/ 
> >> Cops_lynched_rail_track_uprooted_in_Jammu/articleshow/3331088.cms
> >>
> >>
> >> The report says - "Mobs in Jammu lynched two cops to death and  
> >> uprooted a
> >> long stretch of the Jammu-Pathankote railway track."
> >>
> >>
> >> One can compare militants with militants and crowds of 
> protestors,  
> >> with
> >> crowds of protestors
> >>
> >>
> >> And when you do, you realize (if you are not wearing the kind 
> of   
> >> blinkers
> >> that make you think of some deaths as more important than 
> others) the
> >> important difference that I was trying to point out between two 
> 
> >> kinds of
> >> 'peaceful protestors', and the responses to them by the state 
> in  
> >> Jammu, and
> >> in Kashmir.
> >>
> >>
> >> Try and cultivate a less vicious sense of humour.
> >>
> >>
> >> Shuddha
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 20-Sep-08, at 12:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote:
> >>
> >> lol......funniest post ever.
> >>
> >> How soon we have forgotten Col. Thomas who was killed in 
> Kashmir.  
> >> and then
> >>
> >> the statement  People in Kashmir threw stones, like angry 
> crowds do
> >>
> >> everywhere in the world.
> >>
> >>
> >> lol........
> >>
> >>
> >> What an Idea Sirrr Jee.
> >>
> >>
> >> Pawan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta  
> >> <shuddha at sarai.net
> >>> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Radhika,
> >>
> >>
> >> Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting.
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, in this case some  "protesters who claim to be peaceful,
> >>
> >> holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were 
> "garlanded.">>
> >> I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a
> >>
> >> single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were 
> killed in
> >>
> >> Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers
> >>
> >> assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I
> >>
> >> suppose in your opinion, "peacefully"  from their injuries. Gujjar
> >>
> >> huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir
> >>
> >> who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did
> >>
> >> not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw
> >>
> >> stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did
> >>
> >> not kill policemen.
> >>
> >>
> >> The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped
> >>
> >> indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it
> >>
> >> did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal 
> pass. it
> >>
> >> held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released
> >>
> >> them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful
> >>
> >> protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All 
> these>>
> >> prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the
> >>
> >> right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns
> >>
> >> occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this
> >>
> >> case) rightly point out.
> >>
> >>
> >> After all, we live in the country whose government called its 
> nuclear>>
> >> weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'.
> >>
> >>
> >> In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an
> >>
> >> earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by
> >>
> >> fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was 
> 'WAR'.>>
> >>
> >> are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, 
> surely,>>
> >> you can do better than that?
> >>
> >>
> >> warm regards
> >>
> >>
> >> Shuddha
> >>
> >>
> >> On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote:
> >>
> >> Khurram,
> >>
> >>
> >>  your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be
> >>
> >> peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot 
> should be
> >>
> >> garlanded. ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> >>
> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> >>
> >> Raqs Media Collective
> >>
> >> shuddha at sarai.net
> >>
> >> www.sarai.net
> >>
> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _________________________________________
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