[Reader-list] Communism Or Terrorism? -Kamala Sarup

[radhikarajen at vsnl.net]

Dear Partha,
      it is not the question of right to be in India or not to be In India, the duty is to make things better for all in India, having given ourselves a constitution to govern ourselves and when our leadership fails to deliver good governance to all without discrimination, it is for us, as we are the system, to correct the ills, that is right to correct, by participating in voting out the deadwood, by voting in with intellect the right leadership.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, September 29, 2008 8:44 am
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Communism Or Terrorism? -Kamala Sarup
To: Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>

> So are you saying that any one unhappy with the way things are has 
> no right
> to be in India?
> If so, that includes you as well, since you are upset with the way 
> the Govt
> is handling the J&K issue.
> 
> Are you applying for a passport as well?
> 
> Rgds, Partha
> .................
> 
> On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 8:03 PM, Pawan Durani 
> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
> > Hi Partha,
> > If you dont love India, the passport application doesnt take 
> much time
> > these days.
> >
> > Enjoy !
> >
> > pawan
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Partha Dasgupta 
> <parthaekka at gmail.com>wrote:>
> >> Hi Pawan,
> >> For me to honour / love a person, concept or place, the person 
> or place /
> >> concept has to be worthy of that honour.
> >>
> >> To continue in that thought, love the India that I believe in. 
> The India
> >> which assimilated the Greeks, the Romans, the Mughals, the 
> Portugese and the
> >> British and a host of other people & civilisations that came
> >> as visitors& conquerors and traders.
> >>
> >> What I see today as an exclusive rather than an inclusive India 
> saddens>> me, and reduces my faith in the legislative, judiciary 
> and administrative
> >> arms of this country as well as the closed mindsets that seem 
> to be becoming
> >> the rule rather than an exception.
> >>
> >> And let us not forget that the process is driven by people at 
> the end of
> >> the day. Blind faith with out questioning will lead to the same 
> corruption>> that is slowly coming out in the open because of the 
> RTI and the pervasive
> >> media.
> >>
> >> What do you believe?
> >>
> >> Rgds, Partha
> >> .................................................
> >>
> >> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Pawan Durani 
> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:>>
> >>> What about the first line ? You like it ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:58 PM, Partha Dasgupta 
> <parthaekka at gmail.com>wrote:>>>
> >>>> And I love the rest of the lines
> >>>>
> >>>> "Therefore, the other half of the approach for answering this 
> question>>>> is that governments and their leaders must honor and 
> respect their people as
> >>>> well. They can do this by publicly declaring the democratic 
> freedoms (such
> >>>> as the freedoms of speech, press, and religion) that their 
> countrymen>>>> possess and by transparently and consistently 
> honoring these freedoms all
> >>>> the time. One way that governments may do this is by 
> establishing and
> >>>> developing stable and fair legal and courts systems."
> >>>>
> >>>> Rgds, Partha
> >>>> ..............................
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Pawan Durani 
> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, I love the first line ""If people cannot honor and love 
> their>>>>> country then their country cannot love them."
> >>>>> God Bless
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pawan
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Partha Dasgupta 
> <parthaekka at gmail.com>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> "If people cannot honor and love their country then their 
> country>>>>>> cannot love
> >>>>>> them. Therefore, the other half of the approach for 
> answering this
> >>>>>> question
> >>>>>> is that governments and their leaders must honor and 
> respect their
> >>>>>> people as
> >>>>>> well. They can do this by publicly declaring the democratic 
> freedoms>>>>>> (such
> >>>>>> as the freedoms of speech, press, and religion) that their 
> countrymen>>>>>> possess and by transparently and consistently 
> honoring these freedoms
> >>>>>> all
> >>>>>> the time. One way that governments may do this is by 
> establishing and
> >>>>>> developing stable and fair legal and courts systems."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just quoting the concluding para from the article you posted.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Think about it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Rgds, Partha
> >>>>>> ...............................
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:26 PM, Pawan Durani <
> >>>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0504/S00099.htm
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Communism Or Terrorism?
> >>>>>>> By Kamala Sarup 
> <http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0504/S00099.htm#a>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I will define terrorism as "the murder of innocents", i.e.,
> >>>>>>> non-military,
> >>>>>>> non-police, and non-politicians. Thus defined, perhaps
> >>>>>>> communists/maoists in
> >>>>>>> some countries practice terrorism, e.g., Peru and 
> Columbia, but not
> >>>>>>> all. I
> >>>>>>> don't associate the former Russian and East European 
> brands of
> >>>>>>> communism
> >>>>>>> with terrorism. The separatists in Ireland and Spain are 
> terrorists,>>>>>>> but not
> >>>>>>> communists. Muslim terrorists are not communists, 
> generally. Radical
> >>>>>>> Muslim
> >>>>>>> terrorists are not communists, generally. I don't see the 
> connection>>>>>>> between
> >>>>>>> the two terms. But It is widely known that why communism 
> meant in
> >>>>>>> practice
> >>>>>>> bloody terrorism and forced labor?.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On the other hand, we have much evidence that a communist 
> economic>>>>>>> system is
> >>>>>>> associated with an authoritarian government system, which 
> means that
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> government elite enhances its economic, judicial and political
> >>>>>>> freedoms and
> >>>>>>> suppresses those who are led by them. There is no 
> theoretical reason
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> communism to be associated with authoritarianism, but in 
> fact it is
> >>>>>>> and has
> >>>>>>> always been that way. Democratic-communistic societies 
> have always
> >>>>>>> been very
> >>>>>>> small and very short-lived, so I have no hope that one 
> will ever
> >>>>>>> exist for
> >>>>>>> very long in the future anywhere.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If the leaders (meaning the government) of countries promote
> >>>>>>> education and
> >>>>>>> values that emphasize national and international 
> identification>>>>>>> rather than
> >>>>>>> ethnic, religious, tribal or clan identification, then the 
> ethnic,>>>>>>> religious, tribal and clan conflicts will diminish, 
> in the long run.
> >>>>>>> If they
> >>>>>>> promote sufficient economic, judicial and political 
> equality, then
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> people at the bottom of the ladder will not want to topple 
> those at
> >>>>>>> the top.
> >>>>>>> The results of reducing conflict are that when people 
> engage in
> >>>>>>> production
> >>>>>>> and art rather than war, then the killing and maiming are 
> reduced and
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> general living standards are increased and people are more 
> satisfied.>>>>>>> However, people are ignorant, aggressive and 
> acquisitive, so some
> >>>>>>> conflict
> >>>>>>> will always remain.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> However, some internal conflict, including wars, will 
> always exist in
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> country. If we study U.S. or any European country history, 
> we will
> >>>>>>> find
> >>>>>>> continued bloody and non-bloody conflicts. However, since 
> 1945, the
> >>>>>>> end of
> >>>>>>> WW II, they have been relatively peaceful, both internally and
> >>>>>>> externally.
> >>>>>>> Will they remain so for the indefinite future? We and our 
> children>>>>>>> will see!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> After the communists took over power by destroying 
> democracy and
> >>>>>>> monarchy,
> >>>>>>> Combodia, Ethiopia, and Afganistan became weak 
> economically and
> >>>>>>> politically.
> >>>>>>> Nepal has to learn from these countries. Now, the 
> situation in
> >>>>>>> Combodia is
> >>>>>>> getting better because the Cambodian people brought back 
> multiparty>>>>>>> democracy and constitutional monarchy by ousting 
> the Maoist Khmer
> >>>>>>> Rouge.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Twenty-nine years after the communist took over the power 
> in Ethiopia
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> the King, Jahir Shah, was sent out of Afghanistan, the 
> people have
> >>>>>>> suffered
> >>>>>>> immensely.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What I am saying about the Maoist guerrilla issue is that the
> >>>>>>> question
> >>>>>>> should not be which government system is better, mine or 
> yours.">>>>>>> Trying to
> >>>>>>> answer this question will only lead to chaos and hatred, 
> death and
> >>>>>>> destruction, violence and murder. Why take that deadly 
> path? A better
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> more practical way to approach this problem by first 
> realizing that
> >>>>>>> all
> >>>>>>> people everywhere on earth need to focus on loving their 
> country>>>>>>> (wherever
> >>>>>>> that country may be). Similarly they should have respect 
> for their
> >>>>>>> leaders
> >>>>>>> and governments, and on having a greater pride in the land 
> in which
> >>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>> live and call home.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This world's economy revolves around and even depends upon 
> stable>>>>>>> governments everywhere. If each individual was to do 
> his or her civic
> >>>>>>> duty
> >>>>>>> by honoring his or her home country, then economies would 
> be built up
> >>>>>>> in the
> >>>>>>> process. For example, exercising their voting rights by 
> voting in
> >>>>>>> greater
> >>>>>>> numbers during elections, increasing their loyalty to 
> their companies
> >>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>> looking for more ways to being productive, and most 
> importantly,>>>>>>> honoring
> >>>>>>> their father and mother, sisters and brothers, friends and 
> neighbors>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>> ways to make up a better nation.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> An effective way to deliver a just government system is by 
> building>>>>>>> one that
> >>>>>>> possesses a mature checks and balance system, one that 
> limits the
> >>>>>>> effects of
> >>>>>>> corruption and therefore helps to protect the civil rights 
> of every
> >>>>>>> citizen
> >>>>>>> of the country. It's time for the people to stop looking 
> in envy to
> >>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>> lands to satisfy their idea of a desirable place to be, to 
> stop>>>>>>> looking to
> >>>>>>> other countries to find their ideal home. It's time for 
> the people to
> >>>>>>> look
> >>>>>>> to their own homes, their own families, and their own 
> communities to
> >>>>>>> realize
> >>>>>>> how valuable and precious their own land really is.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Six million Ukrainians two million Cambodians, millions of 
> North>>>>>>> Koreans,
> >>>>>>> millions in Zimbabwe and in Tito's Yugoslavia are starving 
> to death
> >>>>>>> right
> >>>>>>> now. The total population of Cambodia, Turkey, Iran, or 
> Argentina had
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> lose their life or suffer from starvation, malnutrition and
> >>>>>>> undiagnosed or
> >>>>>>> mistreated illnesses. Millions are uncounted for, 
> incarcerated and
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> starved to death or died due to exposure. Communists 
> believed that
> >>>>>>> Marxism
> >>>>>>> would bring about the greatest human welfare and power 
> must be used
> >>>>>>> to tear
> >>>>>>> down the feudal or capitalist order but in practice, this 
> system did
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>> improve the lot of the average person, instead it usually 
> made their
> >>>>>>> living
> >>>>>>> conditions worse.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It is really sad to know that some 100 million people 
> worldwide lost
> >>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>> lives to the ideological scourge of communism after 1917. They
> >>>>>>> include the
> >>>>>>> victims of Stalin's terror, victims of the Chinese Cultural
> >>>>>>> Revolution;
> >>>>>>> victims of the Cambodian genocide; victims of the Latin 
> American and
> >>>>>>> Cuban
> >>>>>>> civil wars; East and Central Europeans dying in the 
> uprisings of
> >>>>>>> 1953, 1956
> >>>>>>> and 1968 against their communist rulers. Communists also 
> committed>>>>>>> genocide.
> >>>>>>> Genocide is the killing of people because of their 
> ethnicity, race,
> >>>>>>> religion, or language.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A Combodian citizen stated to local media that "Khmer 
> Rouge said they
> >>>>>>> were
> >>>>>>> creating a utopian nation where everyone would be equal 
> but while the
> >>>>>>> entire
> >>>>>>> population was dying of starvation and disease, the Khmer 
> Rouge>>>>>>> soldiers and
> >>>>>>> the communist party members were able to choose any woman 
> or man they
> >>>>>>> wanted
> >>>>>>> to marry. In addition to limitless food, they were also 
> crazy about
> >>>>>>> gold,
> >>>>>>> jewelry, perfume, imported watches, western medicine, cars,
> >>>>>>> motorcycles,
> >>>>>>> bicycles, silk, and other imported goods. I cannot forget 
> how one
> >>>>>>> woman was
> >>>>>>> forced to cook her husband's liver, which was cut out 
> while he was
> >>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>> alive. Women were raped before execution. In fact, every 
> day, every
> >>>>>>> minute
> >>>>>>> the communists step on the rights of people like us, 
> debase our
> >>>>>>> values and
> >>>>>>> restrict our freedoms. Communism and terrorism have a 
> mutual aim."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Most deadly of all communist countries has been Cambodia 
> under the
> >>>>>>> Khmer
> >>>>>>> Rouge. They killed some 2 million Cambodians. The Soviet Union
> >>>>>>> appears to be
> >>>>>>> the greatest murderer of all, apparently killing near 
> 61,000,000>>>>>>> people.
> >>>>>>> Stalin himself is responsible for almost 43,000,000 of 
> these brutal
> >>>>>>> killings. Most of the deaths, perhaps around 39,000,000 
> were due to
> >>>>>>> lethal
> >>>>>>> forced labor in the gulag and transit there to.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As most communist governments underwent increasing 
> liberalization and
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> loosening of centralized power in the 1960s through the 
> 1980s, the
> >>>>>>> pace of
> >>>>>>> killing dropped off sharply.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If people cannot honor and love their country then their 
> country>>>>>>> cannot love
> >>>>>>> them. Therefore, the other half of the approach for 
> answering this
> >>>>>>> question
> >>>>>>> is that governments and their leaders must honor and 
> respect their
> >>>>>>> people as
> >>>>>>> well. They can do this by publicly declaring the 
> democratic freedoms
> >>>>>>> (such
> >>>>>>> as the freedoms of speech, press, and religion) that their 
> countrymen>>>>>>> possess and by transparently and consistently 
> honoring these freedoms
> >>>>>>> all
> >>>>>>> the time. One way that governments may do this is by 
> establishing and
> >>>>>>> developing stable and fair legal and courts systems.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Now, many Nepalese want peace at any price. We don't know 
> how high
> >>>>>>> the price
> >>>>>>> was that we have to pay for the Maoist's peace?.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> *************
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ( Kamaal Sarup is editor of http://peacejournalism.com/ )
> >>>>>>> _________________________________________
> >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
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> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Partha Dasgupta
> >>>>>> +919811047132
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Partha Dasgupta
> >>>> +919811047132
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Partha Dasgupta
> >> +919811047132
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Partha Dasgupta
> +919811047132
> _________________________________________
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